The Learning Network
Solutions
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The Learning Network
Solutions
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Online discussion with Katie Moeller and Geri Williams Transcript © 2008 by Richard C.
Owen Publishers, Inc. All rights reserved. |
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1 Richard Owen
Good Morning Friends, 1. Writing Process 2. The Writing Process and the Writing Journals 3. Monitoring Growth Over Time 4. The Teaching and Learning Cycle as a Guide to Decision Making
If you experience any difficulty with the email or with accessing the webpages, please contact me offline at richardowen@rcowen.com.
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1
Geri Williams Dear Colleagues: We welcome you to this discussion focused on the writing process. We have supported teachers, coaches, and administrators over the years to develop student writers. Literally thousands of questions enter our minds as we walk into classrooms filled with teachers and students eager to learn more about effective writing. It is from these questions that the germ of the idea came to develop writing journals to support the writing process for students and teachers. The journey has been exciting and challenging. Student achievement in writing across the nation continues to be a concern. It has been 30+ years since Donald Graves first introduced the writing process to us through his research in Atkinson, New Hampshire. However finding the writing process as an authentic, thriving way of life in our schools is not often evident. In this discussion over the next two days, we invite you to share your questions, challenges, and experiences to implement the writing process in your classroom. The student journals were created to provide support for both students and teachers to incorporate the writing process. Our first step in this discussion could be your visiting the website to see the interior pages of the writing journals at http://www.rcowen.com/Student Writing Books. Also, please review the writing process diagram below as a support for our discussion of the writing process. As you look at the diagram you might consider some of the following questions: 1. How do we support students to find writing topics? 2. What is the role of student talk in the writing process? 3. How do we develop passionate writers? 4. What is the role of genre in writing? We look forward to a lively and provocative discussion. Katie and Geri
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3 Pat S. Hi Geri and Katie, One of the first questions you posted for us to think about-Helping students find topics-has caused a lot of thought for me in my classroom. I have two boys (I teach 2nd grade) who choose topics that are so out there that none of their classmates can relate to. I have sat down with them and tried to brainstorm different ideas for them. This has helped a little but any suggestions you can offer would be welcomed. Pat S. |
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4 Geri
This is a wonderful question, Pat. When you say, the topics are "way out there", what do you mean? Your question made me think that the others in the class are not understanding the writer's message. A couple of suggestions come to mind. One is to have the student share a bit of the writing with a group, either a large group share or a smaller, more intimate one. I often ask the question of the group, "What did you learn from this piece of writing?” This gives the writer confirmation that his message is coming across-or not. Then, to spur the writer on, I ask the participants what else they want to know. It seems to me that this young writer is in the midst of developing understandings of audience. He has a lot of information about his topic in his head that he is not able to get down on the paper yet. Please continue to raise questions, if this isn't hitting the mark for you. Geri |
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5 Pat S. Geri, What I mean by "way out there" is that their topic may be a made up animal that only they can relate to because it doesn't exist and the other students have no background knowledge of this "creature" so they can not follow the writing during shared writing time. My thoughts are to give this student a prompt such as a picture to make a story about or another prompt such as an idea that they have to add their voice to. Pat-2nd Grade-Craneville |
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6 Geri Good morning Pat, It's so good to chat with you and always great to hear from familiar voices. Thanks for your example. I have a better understanding of what you are facing with these children. It is always so hard for writers to write about things they really don't know about. "Writers write about what they know" are the words that ring in my heart from my writing teacher, Donald Murray. It is hard to write about a made up animal because you have to keep making it up as you go. It's hard to answer the questions from other writers because you really don't know the answers. So, helping these writers get back to personal experiences will most likely help the writing to become higher quality. Fiction is hard to write because you have to know so much about writing: development of character, problem, plot, theme, events that lead up to plot and there is often a thread of a real experience in fiction writing. Have a great writing day with those children, today. Geri |
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7 Katie Hello Pat, I think these two fellows are writing for themselves...nothing wrong with that. Across time they do need some help with the understanding of audience. I think conferencing/talking with them about some of these "far out" topics to help them narrow their focus, or perhaps giving them some questions to consider about their topic. Who do they think will be reading this piece? Perhaps after they have their topic, giving them an opportunity to sit with a few friends and use an interview.....and they take some notes. They learn from their interview what their classmates want to learn about the topic, which will broaden them as writers. Perhaps they focus on just their message right now and their next step is considering their message's affect upon their audience. Katie |
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8 Geri Here’s another question: How much student writing should be student selected and how much is selected by the teacher? What is the role of writing prompts in writing process? Geri |
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9 Elisa I believe that the bulk of writing topics should be chosen by students. When kids start to choose what you might consider inappropriate topics or "way out there topics" then it's the teacher's decision when and how much to intervene. As a wise woman once said, it all depends. Elisa
Elisa Waingort |
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9a Geri What a great line! It all depends. And how useful it is in the work we do as teachers and learners. Geri
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10 Pat S.
I think most of the writing should be student selected so that their thoughts come from within, but I also believe that some students need writing prompts that allow them to use their imagination and help them write about a topic that interests them. Pat |
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11 Geri
I do agree that most writing should come from within because the writer knows what to add when she is trying to make it clearer for the audience. I also know that quick writes often work to refuel the pump or to get thinking started in another direction. Donald Murray used to give us quick writes every once in awhile, as adults, and it was always amazing what came of those. When I was a principal, I used to cruise the playground or bus room sometimes and just ask the question of students, "What are you writing about?" It was a wonderful way to keep students actively engaged and thinking about their writing. I believe the more opportunities that we give our writers to find their topics of experience or knowledge, the better writers they will become, and they will be able to take what they know from these writing experiences to other writing, in time. |
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12 Elisa
I agree. The other day when I asked one of my kids from last year what he was writing about these days, he said, "Oh, we're finished with writing right now. We may go back to it, though." Broke my heart even as I kept a smile on my face. Elisa Elisa Waingort
Grade 2 Spanish Bilingual |
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13 Geri
Wow! How do we develop continuity and consistency across our schools if our students write one year and not the next? How do we monitor that continuity across our schools? It breaks my heart for that child to put writing somewhere down on the learning list! Geri |
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14 Elisa
Yes, I agree. At least next year at our school the principal is looking at refocusing our PD on writing. We've been focused on different aspects of math for quite a few years now. Elisa
Elisa Waingort |
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15 Meg
In my classroom we have close to 45 minutes of writing workshop everyday. The students pick what they would like to write. So their topics are student selected. About 90% of the student writing in my classroom is student selected. I agree with Pat Shepley that students should have the opportunity to write what they wish. Since they have picked the topic they want to write about it and use their time wisely. I also give writing prompts about 3 times a week, to help those students who are having a hard time thinking of something to write about during writing workshop. I find that those students who can't think of something to write on their own, don't use the writing workshop time to their advantage. With a writing prompt, they are receiving help on a topic and writing for longer than they would have if they just sat and tried to think of something to write about. I also find that with the writing prompts we have done, my students really enjoy them and ask for more. Meg Coakley (2nd grade) |
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16 Geri
Thanks Meg for sharing your thinking. I do agree that we want students to learn how to select topics and to write about what they know. This experience gives them the real opportunity to be able to revise because they know what is missing. They don't realize that the reader doesn't know what is in their head! I try to think of all kinds of ways to help students find their topics. Sometimes, in my writing demonstration, I develop my own new topic list, talking all the time about where I got my ideas. I will do this several times during the year. One topic list doesn't do it for me. I think of different things each time I develop one. Another great way to get students to find topics is to use photographs. I either use photos that I have taken in the classroom or ask them to bring photos from home. This is a great way to recall an event and to gather details. That's what the scrap book industry is all about! Students need to know how to write to a prompt because that is what they have to write on our state tests. I have found that I need to teach students how to write to a prompt. The trick with prompt writing is to find your own experience or angle to the prompt. I think it's difficult for children to learn how to narrow the prompt down to a personal experience. Geri |
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17 Deb
I agree with this thinking...I would also keep a "if you need help getting started" box/center/place/folder (whatever works for you) so that even in getting the "prompts" the kids choose which prompt they want to pursue...We all need a jump to get started every once in a while! Deb |
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18 Elisa
Using your writing notebook lists is also a good idea. Elisa
Elisa Waingort |
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19 Geri
As a writer, I keep my notebook with me all the time. I call it my "noticing notebook." We want students to start noticing possible topics in their everyday world, so keeping a writer's notebook is another way of keeping topics popping up all the time. Geri |
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20 Elisa
One way to get around a steady diet, and dependence, on writing prompts, is to offer ideas that kids can write on if they want to but that are not mandatory. Last year, we brainstormed topics and we put these on slips of paper. At the beginning of writing workshop we'd pull out one of these slips and the kids could write about that topic if they wanted to. They were rarely used, though the kids liked the suspense of finding out what slip would be pulled out that day. This was grade 1. I don't sense the need to do that this year with the students I have. Elisa
Elisa Waingort |
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21 Geri
Thanks for your suggestion, Elisa. No writer needs a steady diet of writing prompts and all writers need a fresh look at the world. Your invitation for possible topics was just that--an invitation--and they could take it or choose their own topic. I see a lot of prompt writing as a way to prepare for the state test, here in the states. We do need to show our writers how to narrow down a topic and write a good piece of writing from a prompt and that needs to happen now and again, not on a daily basis, in my mind. It is just another kind of writing that all writers need to know how to do. However, most of the writing should come from the writer. I want my writers to write when they leave my classroom and my school, just as I want them to be readers in their everyday world, not just in my classroom. Writers need to understand what it is they have to say and let their voices become heard. As a school principal, I encouraged the students to write to me about things they were concerned about. I always answered every letter. My favorite one was from a second grader who told me that there was never enough chocolate milk and that the kindergarten teachers were hiding it. I had previously sent many letters to the food service department about the problem, but when I sent the child's letter, we got results. She was right! Geri |
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22 Elisa Hi, Thanks for your response. Just to clarify...here in Alberta we have the PAT, the Canadian equivalent of standardized testing. These are given in grades 3, 6, 9 and 11. I know the kids have to write to a prompt and I know that teachers teach this "genre" to the kids. I'm not sure how they do it however. Elisa
Elisa Waingort |
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23 Beth
Geri and Katie, I love the My Writing Journals you have created. I like the idea of having individualized resources right in front of the students as they are writing like their own spelling/word lists. I also appreciate that you created the My Writing Journals with lines left specifically for revision. So many times the students want to totally start over...or you have the ones who just shut down if they think they have to "re-write" the paper. This allows them to keep their original writing but allows them space for changes or additions. Also it makes it very convenient for referring back to past pieces of writing for what I call selective revision--revisiting a piece for a specific reason such as adding a new lead or adding a snapshot of description. I see how this could be very useful for having them edit their own papers for conventions. It makes much more sense to me that they reflect on and edit their own writing than to have them fix a bunch of sentences with mistakes. In the past I have used draft books but I like the set up of the My Writing Journal and plan to use it with some students next year (depending on if I am in the classroom) I also plan to share this product with my 5th and 6th grade teachers. The transition to Middle School is rough for some and I can see how this would help them with organization of their writing. Thanks Beth |
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24 Geri
Several special educators have reminded us of how useful the writing journals are for their students, because of the support provided for the student. Some teachers have ordered some of each version, so there is more selection for students as well as being able to match the writing journal to the needs of specific students. Geri |
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25 Ann
I have found in my first grade class that a bunch of pictures from interesting toy magazines, science brochures, etc. can aid in giving kids something to think about. Laminate the pictures and put them on a ring in a center. This will often spark thinking. Ann |
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26 Pat. S. Ann, Thanks for the idea. Pat |
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27 Geri Thanks Ann, I was just talking with a colleague yesterday. When we teach writing at the university level, we use pictures too. We have been amazed at the quality of writing this has produced. We try to use universal themes like patriotism, fear, courage, love and other abstract nouns. It is a great strategy to get writers thinking in new ways. Geri |
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28 Glenys
When I taught sixth grade a few years ago (I am Title I now), I had a 90 minute reading-writing workshop every day. The most difficult thing for some of my students was to choose a topic. I solved the problem by allowing those who needed a prompt to choose from my writing center. In that center were pictures from magazines, grocery ads from local newspapers, short articles of news and people in the news from our weekly newspaper, photos of people and animals, and story beginnings just to name a few, for students to use for ideas. This helped spark some ideas for each student who needed the aid. Glenys Holter |
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29 Elisa
An alternative to this would be to have kids bring in pictures of meaningful family events, pets, or anything else that might spark their interest. Elisa
Elisa Waingort |
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30 Geri
Photographs are wonderul ways to get the seeds of writing started-for all of us. They are also a great way to have a concrete example of observing details. Geri
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31 Barb
I also agree that students should be able to choose what they write about, to get the maximum inspiration. However, my question pertains to the Kindergarten class I am currently Student Teaching in. When we allow them the freedom to choose their topic (as we almost always do), most of them write about the same things over and over (i.e. the park, grandma's house, playing with their sister/brother, etc.). How do we inspire them, without limiting them in Kindergarten? Thank you for any assistance. Sincerely,
Barb Waller |
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32 Geri
Congratulations! I am happy to welcome you to our profession and what a great question. One of the things to keep in mind about the kindergarten writers, is that those topics that you are referring to ARE the topics of their lives. The family, home and school are the things most important to them at this age. They will soon move to writing about friends, as they are making new friends in school. Donald Murray once said that he usually stuck to writing to about nine or ten topics. He kept circling round and coming at them from different angles and points of view. Donald Murray was a Pulitzer Prize writer and this was his thinking! I think that most of us have some deep topics within us that it will take time for us to feel comfortable to explore them in writing. I was just talking with one of my writing colleagues who told me that it had taken her ten years to write about her mother, after her mom died. I am a widow of twenty years and I have yet to write about the death of my husband. It is still very close and painful to write about. So...all of us have a little list of topics that are really important to us and sometimes, it's hard to leave them and sometimes, it's difficult to put them down on paper. Do I think we want to extend young writers? Absolutely. For most young writers, that comes in the form of asking for more information. Usually at this stage of writing, the drawing conveys a lot of meaning. It is pretty typical that young writers write one line. There is so much for them to think about at this stage, that we take for granted. They have to decide where to write on the page, how to use the space, where to write and where to draw, how to physically hold the writing tool, where to start on the page, how to form letters, how to identify letters and sounds and on and on. I would start by asking them to give you more information about what they are writing. Example: I went to my grandma's. I would ask questions that I really want to know more about. What did you do with your grandma? Who else went to grandma's, etc. There are many opportunities for shared writing in the kindergarten classroom, as well. class books about field trips, visitors, books they've read. There are opportunities to write about school and what happens there. The best thing is to listen hard and find out what interests them outside of school and then support them to write about it. Geri |
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33 Elisa
I think it was Katie Wood Ray or Isoke Nia (or perhaps another of my writing mentors) who said that there is nothing wrong with kids writing about the same topic over and over again. Sometimes we write about the same topics because these are the ones that bother our minds and tug at our heart strings. One thing you can do is have them consider writing about the same topic in a different form or genre. Elisa
Elisa Waingort |
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34 Geri
I will always remember Don Murray sharing with us at the Learning Network conference that he continues to write about the same topics. The topics that are still tugging at him and that he circles around from different perspectives. I think writers will learn when it's time to move on. I remember a little third grader who wrote about her rabbits for the entire first part of the year. She wrote about rabbits, her rabbits, about each of the rabbit species and finally the story of when her rabbit ran away. She discovered that she was writing about her rabbits in many ways and tried out many different forms of writing. I remember how she started one of her last pieces about her rabbits, "As you know, if you have read my other pieces about rabbits…" She learned a lot about writing by circling the topic that she loved. Geri |
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35 JCarr
Some students need a jumpstart! They need to have their confidence built up so that they feel secure enough to go out on their own. J. Carr
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36 Geri
I do agree that all writers need a jump start. Personally, as a writer, the first draft is the hardest part for me. It is very easy for me to revise, once I have it down. Donald Murray used to say, "You have to have something on the page." and that is much easier said than done! One of the questions that Katie and I raised earlier was about the role of talk in the writing process. What you are sharing with us here, raises that point again for me. Many writers, including this one, need to talk out their ideas first before they feel the urge to write. So sometimes it isn't that writers don't have something to say, it's that they don't know which thing to start with. Don Graves always asked us to take a sheet of paper and write down each student's name-from memory, not from our class lists. He wanted us to be aware of which students were easy to remember and also the ones that were harder for us to recall. A very interesting experience. Try it. Then, opposite each student's name, write at least one or two things that YOU know they are expert at or know a lot about. This helped me as a teacher to be very aware of which students I needed to spend some time talking and listening to their lives. Geri
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37 Elisa
A variation on this idea is to do "one-liners" on each of your students every day. The idea is to write anything that stood out about your student on that day. When I get to kids that I have nothing to say about and it happens more than once in a week it's a red flag for me. Elisa
Elisa Waingort |
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38 Geri Thanks for sharing this. I'll definitely put it in my toolbox of writing strategies. Geri |
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39 Deb A variation of a free write! Great idea...again! Deb |
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40 Deb
I have also had a student (inservice teacher) - I teach in a teacher ed. program right now - relate how she handles the writing prompts on the standardized tests....one of her students while in the midst of the test sat up and said "boy this is dumb"...this child was talking about the sometimes ridiculous topics in the test preparers request for writing on the test....So now my highly intelligent student uses the "What happens when we have a dumb writing prompt" and she treats it as a just something else to do...they brainstorm ideas, give their writing a go, etc. Deb
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41 Kyla
A truly bright child does not see these as dumb, but challenging. Your role is to change their thinking about writing and how they make it challenging. I am betting that when doing this writing, they are not perfect. As adults and people who contribute to our job and our society we are often challenged with this type of writing. Kyla |
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42 Geri
I do agree with you Kyla. We often are challenged to write on topics given us by others in our work worlds. We have to write references, write to a topic on a blog, write what happened in the auto accident. These are all writing prompts of a sort. I recently had a writing conference with a colleague. Her house was broken into and many things were ruined. The boys who broke into the home, knew both her and her husband. The father of one of the boys went to court to get his son off the hook. The judge asked my friend to write what effect this experience had on her and on her family. When she shared her draft with me, I could feel the fear, the amount of time and energy she had to take from her life to get new doors, estimates, and take time from work to do all these things. The judge was so impressed with her writing, he read it aloud in the courtroom and the boys are serving time. That's writing to a prompt and it made a difference. Geri |
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43 Deb
You've hit one of my buttons, Kyla, and I'm not sure if that is good or
bad I actually truly believe that all children are bright...there is no such thing as "truly" bright in my book. They are all bright but in very different ways, not all of them in academics. I think this is the crux of the issue...for me, the issue isn't whether or not a child sees something as challenging or not but to acknowledge the reasoning and the logic and the mismatch between what test makers thought as worthwhile to ask and the kids lives: social, cultural, and academic lives. The less mismatch there is the more successful these kids are seen in school and the more relevant school becomes to them. That is important. My role and purpose is to support my student's learning period. This is my sole purpose for being a teacher, whether that is in a teacher education program or in a preschool or anywhere in between. It includes showing how no one is perfect in writing at any level, including in adulthood, and that any new form of writing takes time to figure out. Of course no one writes perfectly...I've probably made miscues here... but we have taught our kids that the writing performance - the final product - needs to be perfect. This has to change. Deb |
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44 Pat S.
Deb, You sure raised many points that I agree with. Our role as their teacher is to model that there are so many ways to express their ideas and to celebrate their creativity. Pat |
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45 Geri
I hear your passion, Debbie, and that's the kind of writing we want all of our writers to have. The rubric describes that as voice. Yet in the daily writing lives of students, I often don't hear their voices. They are all made out of ticky tacky and they all come out the same. The prompt isn't the only place where students write and it is only one kind of writing. I want to hear the passion and the voices of all students everyday and topic selection and choice are a very important part of that, in my mind. I work with a school where 80% of the students are Somali. I see writing posted all over the school and I see the value that is placed on writing in that school. These students and their families are adjusting to a school culture as well as so many other cultural issues. I have not seen one piece of writing that relates to their home country or any of the struggles and differences they have had to learn as new Americans. I think we could all learn so much from their stories. As teachers of writing, we need to support those silent stories, which will lead to your point about supporting, teaching and valuing all students. Geri |
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46 Deb
Wow, I bet your work is so fulfilling...I know that when I came to the States at age 9 - I was one of those hidden immigrants...born here but before my 1st birthday was living in another country - that I would not write about the places I lived before because I missed them so much that I didn't think I could plug the tears once they started. And if this was coupled with fleeing an oppressive regime half way across the world I might not share that at all - ever.... These kids must be really scared and so must their parents. Wow, that's seems to be the word that comes to mind when I read your words... Deb |
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47 Geri
I'm sure you are right! The parents are coming to school to learn English and learn the English ways and school is becoming a safe place for the families. This can be the place where they can safely share the stories. When I read of your own experience, it made me feel your pain. I hope someday that you will be able to write at least part of your story. Think of what we could learn from it as teachers. I certainly don't expect that all of our students at school are going to reveal themselves about very personal topics for a long time. It takes time to find a safe environment to share your experiences and creating a safe writing community is a part of all writing classrooms. Thanks for your sharing. Geri |
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48 &n | ||||||
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