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  Ralph Fletcher
  Author of

  Boy Writers: Reclaiming Their Voices (Stenhouse)
  How To Write  Your Life Story (HarperCollins)
  Reflections
  Writing  Workshop: The Essential Guide (Heinemann)
  
  And many more great books for teachers
  and children…

                     TRANSCRIPT       

                                                     
      Online Discussion:
     Developing Writers in the Elementary
     and Secondary Schools

      When:   September 24-27, 2007
      Where: The Learning Network Listserve
      Cost:      FREE
       To participate in future discussions click listserve

Ralph Fletcher is a well-loved author of many valuable trade books for children and professional books for teachers, including books about how to write in various genres.  His books help teachers inspire students to become eager and proficient writers; and his school visits are a celebration of reading and writing. With his new book Reflections Ralph provides a candid visit in book form to share with students in upper elementary grades and middle school. During this discussion he will share ideas and strategies for developing young writers and answer questions you may have about the writing process.

Richard Owen

Ralph Fletcher 

That's an interesting question, Richard. You put those two descriptors (invigorating and challenging) on different ends of the spectrum. But when I think about it I believe that I find writing fiction, and writing picture books, to be both invigorating AND challenging. My new novel, The One O'Clock Chop, was both of those things. In fact I just got an email from a friend who said:  

    "Just finished. What a delightful book! You must have LOVED writing it!!!!"  

I replied that I DID Love writing it, but I have been working on that novel since 2003! So clearly it was a challenging project for me. I had to grow a lot as a writer to be able to write that book.  

For some reason, poetry seems to come easily for me. The poetry collections I have written seem to flow out of me without a lot of sweat and pain and anguish. Also, I think I'm pretty good at the nonfiction writing books I've written for kids. Picture books is one of my very favorite genre. Ironically, though, the fact that it's such a condensed genre makes it challenging to write. Every word counts.  

Ralph

Roxann

Ralph,

I work with pre-service teachers in the area of literacy teaching and learning.
Literacy instruction often seems so overwhelming to beginning teachers (and also those of us with lots of experience).

What advice do you have for beginning teachers?

In your opinion, what is the most important thing for teachers to do and what is the most important thing for them to avoid doing?

Thanks for the inspiration and information that you bring to educators and students!

Rock
(Roxann Rose, Western Washington University)

Ralph

Hi Roxann,

And hi to my friends (Donna Qualley and Nancy Johnston) in Bellingham. Good question! My sense is that it's important that beginning teachers start by engaging in the work themselves. That's a very Don Murrayesque idea, I suppose, but I believe it's true. Read the poems or short stories that the students are reading, and enjoy them, delight in the language, etc. That's where I would start.

I like what Peter Elbow once said that a good writing teacher is a "good host and a good bouncer." At the beginning of the year you want to be a good host. Let the kids know you are interested in them, and are interested in what they will write and say.

Ralph

Beth

Ralph,
I am a Middle School Instructional Coach. One of my jobs is to support teachers as they use effective instructional practices in the classroom. Though I support all subject areas, I see our largest need is in the area of effective writing instruction. That is where we come to a huge divide amongst our teachers in terms of knowledge, skills, level of comfort and philosophy of how to effectively teach writing. We have staff who have been trained as elementary teachers and others who have been trained as secondary teachers. When our junior high turned into a middle school, and went from a 7-8 building to a 5-8 building two years ago, was when I really became aware of the huge difference in how teachers approach writing instruction. As always, teachers revert back to what they know and are comfortable with when asked to analyze their instructional practices.

Do you have some suggestions about where I should start with my staff to build a common understanding of effective writing instruction? We need to recognize our different ideas and approaches but for the good of our students come to some common ground. Where do you suggest we start?

I so appreciate your time and consideration of this subject. I have a feeling I am not the only one struggling with where to begin!

Beth Brophy
Strategy Support Team
Instructional Coach
Harper Creek Middle School

                                                                                                                        Ralph

Dear Beth,

Wow, that is a big one. I appreciate your candor. The problems you describe--various philosophies on teaching
writing, differing skill levels among staff, etc--are made more acute by an aging teaching population. You're asking a staff development question more than a writing question, but I'll make a few suggestions.

       *It would be great to have someone knowledgeable teach a district course on teaching writing. The benefit
         here is that at least teachers will up end up with a common vocabulary--what does "revision" mean and
         how does it differ from "editing." and so forth.
        *Set up a district network. Going all the way back to Glen Head School in the North Shore District on Long
         Island, the principal set up a group known as "Bagels & Pens."  We would discuss issues, share successes
         and frustrations. Sometimes they would pick a particular topic (teaching poetry, for instance) that many
         were wrestling with. The trick is to make it ongoing, fun/casual, and make sure it doesn't turn into a gripe
         session.
       *Do a summer writing institute. This takes about a week. In the morning teachers write and share and go
         through a real experience with their own writing. In the afternoon they learn the pedagogy about how to
         run a writing workshop.
       *Pick a common book and do a book study on it.
       *Identify the strongest writing teachers in your building and make subs available for teachers who want to
         go visit them.

Those may not be the kind of systematic ideas you want, but that's a start, I think.

Ralph

Beth

Ralph,

Not only is it a start, it serves as validation to many of my ideas and suggestions to our district. Many of the things you have suggested have been topics of discussion in our Instructional Coaches group for the past two years. At least I feel that we are on the right track and need to get the district to see the value in what we have been proposing.

Writing with candor comes as naturally to me as speaking with candor. I have to be willing to "see" the tarnish before I have any hope of revealing the silver-lining. Nothing is easy about changing the instructional culture within a school, but we won't get where we need to be if we don't acknowledge where we are.

Beth

Beth Brophy
Strategy Support Team
Instructional Coach
Harper Creek Middle School

Lori

I have to say our district has done a remarkable job addressing a similar problem. For two summers running we have had a wonderful week with Isoke Nia. During the school year last year I had one building focused on writing. We undertook a yearlong focused study on the role of genre study, using multiple resources including Wondrous Words. We have a district level writing committee and have worked hard to identify three required pieces to be collected annually. The first piece is simply personal, impromptu—a dipstick, if you would have it, to measure what our kiddos are taking on without prolonged instruction. The second and third pieces are a narrative and non-narrative piece, with a spiraling curriculum so that personal story leads into memoir and later into personal essay. At the time the curriculum changes and assessment pieces were proposed, all that was happening in many classrooms was journal writing. As district literacy coach, I feel very strongly that this approach leaves much room for teacher and student passions in the workshop, for author study and prolonged periods of self-selected writing against a background of craft lessons. In reality, it has proven to be a catalyst of change. In the two years we have collected pieces scored with our own rubrics, there have been significant changes in the quality of the writing. We have a long way to go, it does not happen overnight. Some have much longer than others to go, if you get my drift. But change is happening and there are so many rooms that would now stage a riot should writing workshop be dropped from daily routines, I know we are on the right track.

Lori

Ralph

It sounds like you are on the right track, Lori. And your posting reminds me that change is slow.

Ralph

Lori

I appreciate the question about coaching and have a related question. Many of my teachers seem overly adamant about the steps of process writing. It is implemented as a lockstep process, with little flexibility. One
of my study groups is reading Wondrous Words (Katie Ray). In rereading this book, I am struck once more by
the discussion of envisioning. What role do you see process writing playing in the writing workshop? What
advice would you have for our youngest teachers of writing?
--
Lori Jackson
District Literacy Coach & Mentor
Todd County School District
Box 87
Mission SD 57555

Ralph

Dear Lori,

What role does process writing play in the writing workshop? Well, a huge part, I'd say. Process writing is what kids do during writing workshop. But I think you're absolutely right about being wary of any "lockstep writing process." "Writing process" isn't supposed to be a rigid program we impose on students. Rather, it should be a reflection of the authentic ways writers write. But if you take twenty writers, you'll find a range of ways they move from initial idea to finished product. There is no one way.

I write about this a lot in my book-for-kids, How Writers Work (HarperCollins). I think the one-size-fits-all writing process has turned many kids off to writing. Let's not teach them THE writing process. Rather, let's let them find A writing process that works for them. And that means that we need to be flexible and realize that different students will be doing different things as they write.

What does that mean? Well, for one thing, don't make each kid pre-write (with a cluster web or graphic organizer) for each piece they do.

Of course, one of the best ways to help teachers not do this is to encourage them to write. Urge them to take a summer writing course or do a writing project. Once they go through the process of writing themselves, they will have a richer, more nuanced understanding of all the ways writers work.

Sincerely,

Ralph

Leslie

Dear Ralph,

I am so thrilled to be able to communicate with you after knowing you for so many years. I am not sure that you will remember me, but I first met you when you were in my son's second grade (I think) classroom at Glen Head Elementary School in Glen Head, NY. Matt is now 25!! I have seen you since on several occasions, but not for a while in recent years.

As a literacy coach in a K-8 school, my responsibilities are vast and at times overwhelming, however, I work in a school with outstanding teachers and administrators who are, for the most part, well-versed in workshop, and eager to learn and grow. Every year we study together and collaborate on our road to improve practice.

Our challenge is mostly in the middle school grades where scheduling reading and writing is a challenge. I have come up with a plan but would love your input. I am attaching my plan and am eager for your feedback.

Looking forward to these 4 days....
 

PLAN
I taught junior high, both 7th and 8th since we looped with our students.  As others have said, you need to set up the routines in the beginning of the year. Make sure students understand your definition of silence; what choices do they have while you work with small groups.  Also, keep your small group meetings short! Meeting with any group for
longer than 20 minutes is too long for the group, and too long for the other students.

I really like Lori's idea of a rubric. I'd develop that along with the students. If students are creating a rubric for the first time, I would first brainstorm what needs to happen during reading workshop time. Then, I’d ask students to begin compiling the highest rubric with descriptors.
Then, I'd go from there.

Leslie Popkin

Ralph

Hi Leslie,

Your plan is interesting. I'd look at some of the authors of good books on middle school writers--Atwell, and Carl Anderson. Linda Rief has an interesting product she's had success with--The Readers Writers Noteboook (Heinemann). You might take a look at that.

Also, ever since I wrote Boy Writers, I'm always thinking of how I can do a better job of bringing boys into the community of the writing classroom.

Good luck! Where are you teaching now?

Ralph

Leslie

Ralph,

Thanks for the feedback. I will take a look at Linda Rief's book. I am not familiar with that title. And, of course, Boy Writers, should be a good title to lend yet another perspective.

I am at PS/IS 266 in Bellerose. It is on the new Glen Oak Campus in Queens. Great school!!

In the middle school, it gets hard to juggle the Readers and Writers Workshop in a meaningful way. I know from personal experience that you always feel like one is being short-changed. So, we keep trying different models. Hence, the major-minor concept, because I feel that a teacher NEVER wants there to be a time when kids are not doing any reading or any writing.

How have you been? Busy, I'm sure. I bought your Teaching Qualities of Writing last year and I am trying to help teachers incorporate it in several grades. When you and JoAnn created this, which grades did you have in mind and how did you see it being differentiated across the grades?

Leslie

Ralph

Hi Leslie,

Yes, I've been very busy. When JoAnn and I created Teaching the Qualities of Writing we thought of it as being best suited for teachers of grades 3-7. You asked about how it could be differentiated across the grade levels. Well, in pages 60-61 of the Teachers' Guide we deal with that, showing possible ways teachers could use it from grade-to-grade. As you know, in TQW we provide a Launch Cycle--18 lessons to be used to start the school year. You probably don't want those kids to have to be exposed to those same lessons each year. One nice alternative to this is Lessons for the Writer's Notebook. Do you know that product? We created 20 lessons about the writer's notebook using exactly the same format as the ones in TQW. The lessons in Lessons for the Writer's Notebook can be used as an alternative launch cycle for TQW.

Ralph

Leslie

Thanks, Ralph.  I am not familiar with Lessons for the Writers Notebook, but I will check it out.

Leslie

Genevieve

Ralph,

Speaking of boy writers, do you have any suggestions as to a series of books for 2nd-3rd-4th graders with a character theme? The girls seem enthralled with Katie Kazoo and those characters somehow all tie in around a character theme. In fact, the girls are now forming a Katie Kazoo lunch book club. We wanted to do something similar with the boys. The alignment between reading and writing is tight, so I thought you may have some suggestions. If we can get the boys interested in books, the greater the chance at getting them into writing.

By the way, you are highly regarded in our neck of the woods (WI) and your works are used by our trainers of the Literacy Collaborative at Lesley ( where I am heading in an hour.) Shall I say hello to Irene from you?

Thanks for your early morning input.

Genevieve

Jane

I would like Ralph to address effective ways to teach "writing to a picture prompt." This continues to be an area that our elementary students have the most difficulty responding to on our state tests. What grade level is best to begin preparing our students to become successful at this task and what are a few effective strategies that engage our students to become adept at writing to a picture prompt. Thank you.

Jane Horn
Reading Specialist

Kaye

Jane - what state do you teach in? Which grade levels use a picture prompt? In our district and state assessments we use verbal, but not picture prompts.

Ralph, what do you think about picture prompts? As a kindergarten/k-2 literacy support teacher, I am thinking a lot about oral language development. I think as people learn to write they need to know that writing can help organize ideas, thoughts, and stories. Like you mentioned, I want kids to know I am interested in what they have to say - free write, Kid Writing... But they also need to be able to write to a prompt. Do you think picture prompts would be more helpful to new and/or struggling writers than verbal "picture in your head" prompts?

Kaye Marshall
Mt. Baker School District
Bellingham, WA

Jane

I teach in NJ and the picture prompt state assessment begins at grade 3.

Jane Horn

Ralph

To Kaye and to Jane,

I'm going to disappoint you, no doubt, but I don't have a lot to say about prompt writing. I know kids are tested that way, but that doesn't mean we should give students a steady diet of prompt practice. It seems to me that the best way to get students ready for the test is to have good stuff going in the classroom. Let them do what writers do--find topics they are passionate about, write, investigate, illustrate, and share with each other, etc.

I'm all about giving kids more choice in writing. In fact, I'm going to be presenting at the NCTE conference in New York City this April. Katie Wood, Peter Johnston (author of Choice Words), and I will present in a session titled WHERE HAS ALL THE REAL CHOICE GONE? REVISITING AN ESSENTIAL ELEMENT IN WRITING INSTRUCTION.

It is my experience that kids who have written a lot, and are comfortable writing, generally do just fine on the writing test.

Ralph

Kaye

NOT disappointed! Thank you!

Kaye

Jeri

We do not have picture prompts in Colorado on our CSAP state test. Only written. I am not even sure I know exactly what they are on a state test.

I use pictures in my room to increase sensory images etc, occasionally while I teach. Is this the same type
thing?

Jeri

Lori

Our students used to have a picture prompt, a series of three (dumb) pictures which were meant to inspire stories. I spent about a week talking about how we could create a story around these pictures, adding events before, between, and after. We worked with those sequencing cartoons from an old teacher book and created stories through interactive writing. In addition, we always talked about characterization—naming our character and giving the reader some sense of what kind of a person (animal??) he/she was. This helped and I felt that at least some of the lesson could carry over into REAL writing.

Lori

Joan

If what we are doing in modeling lessons to young children (I assume that they are young because you are doing interactive writing) is not demonstrating REAL writing, I worry that our message is not a good one. From many workshops I have attended in Toronto by Ralph I know that we should always be modeling authentic purposes for writing and finding real purposes for children's writing. Photos of a class trip or photos of scenes in their own neighborhood that might inspire a story is much more powerful for children if you feel you need a picture prompt. Our goal should never be to pass a test, but because we have worked hard to teach children to become writers themselves, they will therefore do well when assessed. If your assessments are not meeting the right educational goals then that should be questioned, not be used to alter the way you teach.

Joan Littleford

Ralph

Dear Joan--

Thanks. I agree with you. To me, one of the litmus tests of any writng or reading instruction should be: Does this make sense to me as a writer? Would I ever do this? If not, then we should rethink it. Of course, many teachers are caught in a bind--they are expected to teach in a way that they may not agree with.

Ralph

Lori

I guess I would say that if ugly writing tests are destined to be part of our kiddos lives, they need to be prepared to write under those circumstances. It should cheer you to know that we always referred to them as FAKE writing... And now, outside required state testing, we are assessing very, very differently.

So while I agree that if your assessments are not meeting the right educational goals then that should be questioned, not be used to alter the way you teach, I am also fully aware that teachers are not always in a position to change this. I am not saying do not speak up, but that teachers can devote a small bit of time to FAKE writing. I could have used photographs, but they were going to get three dumb cartoon pictures.

Lori

Leslie

I totally agree. We must have faith in our ability to teach well and know that the children will demonstrate their abilities on assessments without ONLY doing test prep.

Leslie
NYC

Dave

I am enjoying hearing your voice, Ralph. Thank you for sharing with us. Just wanted to jump in and ask if you meant April or November for NCTE in NYC? Looking forward to seeing you there (NCTE) and on LI at the Huntington Hilton in April (perhaps that was what made you think of NYC in April :).

Best always,
Dave
 

Ralph

Oops, you're right, I meant to say that I'll be at the national NCTE conference in late November!

Ralph

Tracy

I have used your A Writer's Notebook as a guide to introducing the writer's notebook to my 7th and 8th ESL grade students this year. I read snippets aloud, and all of the parts where writers share how they use the notebook. Each chapter lends itself to use in a mini lesson about a specific strategy to get notebook ideas. I offer it as an option, but the students are free to write about whatever they want. I keep a chart of the "options" on the OH as a reminder of what we've talked about.

The girls are doing pretty well, but I am struggling to get the boys to write anything! I am just about to the place that they need to re-read to start a piece for publication (in the 5th week of school...I feel behind already!) but most of these boys have little that is worthy to be expanded. Any advice?

Tracy Perry
ESL
Carter JH
Arlington, TX

Ralph

Hi Tracy,
You bring up the huge issues of boy writers, and how to engage them. First of all, don't be too judgmental about what is "worthy to be expanded." Let them pick a piece and take it to publication. And if they don't do major revisions or flesh it out, well, so be it. It's only the first piece they will publish. There will be others.

Have you read my book, Boy Writers: Reclaiming Their Voices? I tried to make it practical, and end each chapter with a section titled "What Can I Do In My Classroom?" Part of the problem with boys is that we don't allow them to write about what they want to write about: war, professional weapons, etc. Right now, today, Tuesday, September 25, I know my 9th grade son is going to come home with great expectations on his mind. Why? Because today is the release date for Halo 3, the video game! I have to drive 20 minutes to the mall to buy it for him (of course he pre-ordered it a month ago). Am I happy with this? No. Would I rather he were reading Huck Finn? Oh yes. But this is where the boys live. The way you engage them, I believe, is finding out where they live and inviting them to bring that into their writing. There are many writing pieces he could do connected to this video game. Joseph could create a "cheat sheet" for playing Halo 3. In Lessons for the Writer's Notebook, we created one lesson called "Goof-around writing." Here we encouraged boys do doodle, get wild and silly, use humor, be sarcastic, do whatever kind of writing they want. One of my teacher friends in Florida said that this is the lesson boys have most connected to. I know this only partially answers your question, but I hope it's a start.

Good luck!

Janet

Imagine how surprised a teen would be if his teacher gave an “extra credit” homework assignment today to edit or revise the instruction booklet or a cheat sheet for Halo 3 (or some other game)!

Janet

Tracy

Ralph,

Yes...Halo 3...my 18 year old college freshman was home at 1 am after the release party at Game Stop.
How to deal with wanting to write about violence? I teach in a low income, predominately Hispanic school, and frankly, the boys seem to want to write violent, gang-related stories. I believe my administration is nervous about letting them write about that, and I'm not sure I know how to lead the students into making that writing meaningful, and not glorifying violence. I haven't gotten your book yet. Sounds great!! I didn't know it was out there!

Tracy Perry

Ralph

Hi Tracy,

It's a huge issue, of course. I believe a few things:

*make commonsense limits, with students' input, on this. One teacher told her kids: “There's the language of
  the classroom, the language of the playground, and the language of the street. I don't want to hear the
  language of the street (curse words) but you can use playground language."
*boys do understand the difference between the virtual world and the real world. Millions of boys play violent
  video games and don't commit violent crimes.
*We need to accept boys' interests, and not judge them. In Boy Writers, I tell the story about my nephew,
  Santiago. I asked him: "What do you wish about writing in school?" "I wish we could write about war," he said
  without hesitation. "I know a lot about World War Two and the Korean war because my great Uncle Johnny
  fought in those wars. But when I wrote about it, my teacher said: 'You can't write about war.' She made
  me stop." I want to say, for the record, that I think this is wrong. Some of the greatest, most enduring works
  of literature deal with war. I say--let boys write about war, but again, set commonsense limits.

Ralph
 

ebbie

Tracy,

Knowing that I'm not Ralph and please forgive me for responding ...I have negotiated 'violence' limits with students before - they need to have a voice in this issue before they will really follow the 'rules' - if they would do it at all. I've also had my then 8th grade son reported to the principal because he wrote about kids today and the violent world they live in because the teacher didn't want a true depiction of today's child because she didn't think it was appropriate to do so in school even though her assignment said exactly this. He did it for spite over inane rules and the teacher recoiled and struck back. She retired a year later after 40 years of teaching. She meant well but didn't understand the lives of kids today and assumed that kids are kids regardless of the generation (they are and they aren't). Now my son has not been exposed to the violence he wrote about at home but he did get it from the lives of the kids he was in school with.

They also need to feel safe in school with you to even begin to write those stories, although I'm sure they'd scoff at that notion. I would think that their notebook would be an appropriate place to formulate their stories - violent or not - and then they choose some of them to do for you according to the negotiated rules. Gangs though, are left outside the door of the class and preferably outside of the school grounds...but this might be a little too much to ask of them.

Ralph, I'm sure has many other suggestions and ideas but I thought I would pass on my experiences as this is a really important issue. Elementary school kids are recruited into gangs at what I think is an alarming rate.

Debbie East
Indiana University
 

Jeri

Debbie – Isn’t this what the Freedom Writers Institute is doing also with their writings. They allow the gang etc writing to come forth and over time change the genres of the writers?

Jeri Trujillo

Debbie

Absolutely! They did it in their writing alot more eloquently, too. But they also created spaces and opportunities for the gang genre and therefore indirectly the gangs to be changed. What they did was in many ways truly democracy in action. They did Freire proud.

Debbie

Kathy

a question from Kathy in Colorado...

I was so interested when the issue of violence came up. I have used a writers' workshop for over twenty years. I have been in elementary schools for those years, either coaching or teaching literacy. I used to handle violence by simply saying 'no' and leading boys to write action stories without a lot of killing, information books, etc. My students always ended up loving writing and it was easy to direct them in other directions. But this year I am team teaching/coaching in a seventh grade. Two boys who are notorious for NOT doing any work ever, are in my class. One is a cocaine baby and for the sake of time I will focus on him. But please understand that the other one is writing the same kinds of stories. The first young man read at about 2nd grade level when I started with him 6 weeks ago. He is functioning at about 4th grade level after being in my readers' workshop for these few weeks. He balked completely at writing until I helped him plan his first story, which was a personal narrative with a hint of memoir in it. I thought I had him hooked, but this go round he is insisting on writing a horror story full of killing, shooting, blood, etc. He was so excited about his next idea that I went ahead and let him begin this horribly violent version of a zombie movie. I am working madly to introduce in my modeling and with mentor texts some better genres and teach him about the craft and beauty of the written word. In the meantime, I want him to see himself as a writer until I can get him to try some of these other genres. I truly want your opinion. I respect and honor what you have to say. In fact, I use one of your books as my text in a distance learning class I teach for Adams State College in Colorado. Is it right to let him write these violent stories until I get him to feel confident enough to try genres that are a bit healthier and as I see it, better written?

Kathy King-Dickman in Del Norte, Colorado

Ralph

Hi Kathy,

Of course, this is a tough one. I put this issue in the larger context of all the restrictions boys face when they want to write about what they're interested in.  One teacher interviewed her boys and asked about this. One said: "We aren't allowed guns- not even if it is a policeman. No drunk funny things." Millions of boys find themselves in classrooms where real choice has been eliminated.

First, I'd urge you to read my book, Boy Writers. I include an example of "boy writing" and some of them definitely do push the limits of what most teachers would find acceptable. Second, if I were you, I'd beware of that hierarchy we may have in our heads that puts horror down low and the "better genres" as you put it, with "craft and beauty of the written word" at the top. That's very arbitrary. Where would Stephen King's novels rank? I just happened to pick up The Ruins, a novel by Scott Smith. It was a horror novel in which one awful thing after another happens.

Everyone has to make their own call on this. I do believe we have to be more accepting of this kind of writing. I think we have to try to revise the way we look at boy writers--not as a problem that must be managed or dealt with, but as writers with special gifts, energy, humor. We need to develop an appreciation for it. We need to look for the sly humor behind the violence which tells us that boys are often spoofing. (Tom Newkirk points out that the central genres for boys are parody and satire.)

Having said all that, I do believe in commonsense limits. Some kind of writing is disturbing and, if I were a classroom teacher, I would have to stop it.  Do we really need to see blood spurting out someone’s femoral artery? Also, Isoke Nia points out that there's a kind of violence toward women in some boys' writing. "This I stop," she told me. "I tell the boys--we're not going to be those kind of men." That makes sense to me.

But I do believe in giving kids more leeway. When I wrote my book my wife JoAnn Portalupi read the manuscript. "It seems like you are trying to normalize violence in boys' writing." And I replied: "That's exactly right." We need to engage boys--not judge them. We need to meet them where they live.

Kathy

Thanks so much for responding.  Michael came to writing class excited and ready to write and work today and yes, it was blood and gore!  It is a complicated issue.  I love your response about horror not necessarily being poorly written.  (My son who is 27 would laugh.  He has said this to me so many times in his life!)  I will consider all that you have said, and during my time with Michael I will read Boy Writers, ponder it all, and learn with my very violent, passionate, and worthy of much consideration, Michael. 

Kathy

Lori

I work among Native American children and so many have a steady diet of blood and gore in terms of TV and movies, I just had to negotiate a compromise when working in the classroom. Here is what I tried with my first and second grade students.  When they took off on violent or bloody storylines, I would ask them, “If you were going to make a movie out of this book, would it be rated PG or R?”  The kiddos got it, they know those R’s and quickly edited for ‘public broadcast’.  I got some stuff that didn’t thrill me, but my kids were making critical decisions about what I didn’t get.  Eventually, we moved them beyond it.

Lori

Ralph

Lori,

thanks for sharing that. The PG and R ratings give kids another way to look at it. It makes them think of audience. 

This violence-in-writing issue is a hot one. After Virginia Tech, I got calls from reporters around the U.S. asking for my reaction since the shooter had created some violent writings. It's worth reminding ourselves we live in the post-Columbine, post-911, post-Virginia Tech world. Everybody is jumpy.  

    Here's a note from a father I recently got. His dilemma sums up the sorry state of things: 

After intense lobbying and full financial support from me, I convinced the school administrators to begin an "advanced writing course" for a small number of elementary school students including my son. This began in 3rd grade and has now followed this group, which includes my son (one of only two boys) into 5th grade. Overall, it has been a resounding success.

Last year, the young writers finished the semester by producing a bound
volume of their stories, one from each student. The stories written by the two
boys had some violent content. My son wrote a Star Wars based tale that turned
out to be profoundly anti-war. But to get to that conclusion, his protagonist had to live through decades of struggle. The other boy wrote about the Samurai.

When the writing class restarted last week, the teacher announced that no
more violent content would be allowed in any of the children's stories. (My
son's response was, "What do you expect us to write about, ponies?") This was
not the writing teacher's decision, but was imposed on her by an administrator.
I am deeply disturbed by this move for a complex of reasons, including it's
profoundly gender biased effects, the harm it will do the boys in the class...

Ralph

Jody

I’m wondering about the distinction between violence and gore.  Is one more acceptable to some people?

I’m thinking particularly of memoir, one of our district-required genre samples.  If our students live with violence, would we expect it to not find its way into their writing.  Katie Wood Ray tells us writers write about what is important in their lives.  

I try to talk to students about violence for violence’s sake vs. what they are trying to express by writing this.  I like Isoke’s position as well, and those words will certainly find their way into my conferences. 

Ralph

 For what it's worth... 

I recently went to one school, and visited a 5th grade class. One boy asked me:
"What do you think about gore?" 

   "I think he would have made a darn good president," I said. 

    He gave me a bemused look. 

"Seriously?" I replied. "I think a little gore goes a long way. I don't think you should over-use it. Look at some of the short stories by Edgar Allan Poe. There is very little gore, but those stories are masterful." 

Ralph 

Debbie 

I'm forwarding this from The Southern Poverty Law Center.  It talks about the lessons we have and haven't learned with regards to civil rights and violence (child to child at times).  I thought it was well done. 

This might be a way to deal with the violence in writing issue - violence is a part of our lives either directly or indirectly.  Tough issue. 

Debbie

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Teaching Tolerance <TeachingTolerance@newsletter.tolerance.org>
To: dkeast@indiana.edu

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 10:37:46 AM
Subject: Six Lessons from Jena

Luke

I have made this school year my focus on changing students from writers into authors. To do this we have been using your A Writer's Notebook, How to Write your Life Story book, and Marshfield Dreams. So far, it looks pretty successful - we're almost completed with our life stories! My question is, what other author centered activities can I use to change their focus from just writing, to real authoring?

Luke Perry
Battle Creek Public Schools

Paul

Ralph,
Luke's question leads to mine, please comment on the value of student publishing. We specialize in book
publishing, but I know there are growing options these days.

Paul Burt
Paul@PenandPublish.com

Ralph

Hi Luke--

You sound like you are on the right track. What grade do you teach? I would continue to read powerful texts, and get them talking about what makes those texts work. Also, I'd encourage you to see what kinds of writing your kids would be interested in doing--poetry? Nonfiction? Maybe write their own picture books?

I think some of the genres that boys would be interested in--travel writing, sports commentary, humor--are things that we could incorporate into the writing curriculum.

Get their feedback about the unit you just did. What did they like? What was hard for them?

Ralph

Luke

One thing we are doing this year is participating in NANOWRIMO and setting the word goals individually. I wonder what your perspective is on this kind of activity. Do you think the focus on volume is beneficial? My students seem pretty excited about it, but I am worried about defending it to others. In order to get ready for this whole month of writing, we are spending most of October building examples of writing that they can do: character trait lists, character lists, plot lists, genre definitions, literary concepts, etc. I am using the writer's notebook as a leaping off point for this activity, but I wonder how I am going to motivate kids past the initial couple of days. Are there methods that you have found useful in your own writing to keep you going? Are there methods you have used in the classrooms you have taught in that have helped students deal with the strain of keeping going when the going gets tough?

Luke

                                                                                                                                    Ralph

Hi Luke--

I had never heard of NANOWRIMO. Honestly, I was VERY skeptical when I went to check it out, found their website. But it actually sounds pretty good--writing a lot, go for fluency, lower your expectations. It's very Murrayesque! Don Murray used to tell me: "Write early, and write fast. Writing should be like riding a bicycle down a hill, you're just bumping along..."

I don't know all the particulars. And I'd be wary of putting this into a rigid program: "You MUST WRITE 1,000 WORDS BY TOMORROW MORNING!" But the philosophy sounds okay. I say let's do whatever we can to bring fun into writing. I applaud your critical questioning, wondering how you'll keep the energy high after the novelty (counting words, etc) wears off.  I guess you'll have to see. I just wrote a novel for adults--the working title is Regarding Cupid's Bow--that is 69,000 words long. But adult writers can sustain their energy much longer than young writers can. (I talk about this quite a bit in my new book, Reflections, published by Richard C. Owen.) I think kids quickly get bored by a topic.  I like the idea of giving kids lots of short-genre writing projects: micro-memoir, poems, etc.

How to keep going? That's a big question. Katherine Paterson says that there has to be an emotional core at the heart of every poem, story, or novel you write.  It can't be external. You have to want to do it.

Ralph

Ralph

Paul Burt mentioned publishing. Certainly, I do think it's important.  One of the main reasons for doing this is because it gives a rationale for editing. Nancie Atwell reminds us that "good writing should have what readers' eyes expect." Editing matters when writing goes from private to public.

How to publish? I'm a big believer in finding a variety of ways for kids to "go public" with their work. It could be a lovely laminated book, sure, but it also could be a kid who writes about visiting Grandpa in Tampa, and sends a copy of his finished piece to Grandpa. Let's encourage students to find the appropriate audience for what they have written. In a writing conference we might ask: "Have you thought about who should read this?"

In my paperback book for kids, How Writers Work, I have a chapter that is titled "Publishing: Going Public."

One book I'm fond of is  The Market Guide for Young Writers written by Kathy Henderson. It is a great guide for helping kids publish poems and stories in magazines like Stone Soup, Cricket, etc. And of course there are now innumerable ways to publish on the web. 

Ralph

                                                                                                                                    Debbie

Hi Ralph,

I have been enjoying this discussion thread so much, thank you!   

What you say about finding a variety of ways to go public with their writing and finding the right audience for the writing is so important.  This statement makes explicit the roles audience plays in publishing and that publishing a work for a teacher at any level doesn't mean he/she is the audience (i.e. writing in school is only for school) and that part of our job as teachers is to help them figure this audience out. 

I teach at a university, future and inservice teachers reading and writing methods plus courses in ESL and teaching adult literacy.   Here I find a different issue at times...the issue is that a published author is a writer and non-published writers aren't writers.  This belief and related practices really does trickle down to the classroom.  The embedded belief is that no one is a writer until they publish.  My question for you is when did you start believing you were/are a writer and then when did you start publishing and did you go through this type of argument within yourself? 

Thanks, 

Debbie East
Indiana University

Ralph

Debbie, 

First, let me thank you for thoughtful entry on the issue of violence in writing. Now, as to this question. Yes, it's tricky. At the academic level, "publishing" means a juried article.  

I went through a period in my life as a writer when I really wanted to see myself in print. So I wrote and got published in airline magazines, local papers, everywhere I could. I even published four articles in (drumrolll please) COSMOPOLITAN! It's true. It wasn’t highbrow lit, but my name appeared in millions of issues of Cosmopolitan. That external approval was necessary for me then. I needed it.

Maybe we can't all be Writers (with a capital W) but we can all be writers (with a small w). A writer is someone who writes. When my brother and I coached soccer, the kids listened to my brother more than me not because he was a professional (he wasn't) but because he actually plays soccer. I talked about it--he truly walked that walk.

That's a do-able goal--being a writer, and having our kids see us as one.

Ralph

Denise

Hi and thanks in advance for your time. I teach K-5 students in an elementary setting. As the Media Specialist, I work with students on writing and help teachers implement your TQW program. Many teachers come from a school of thought for instruction based on "themes". For example, they will spend some time teaching "poetry" and then "persuasive writing" etc. What are your thoughts on that? I know that from a student standpoint, we want to encourage choice in writing topics but how do you feel about "themes" in terms of instruction? TQW touches on things in a broad sense but is it beneficial to drill down to specific genres to illustrate differences in the craft of writing?

Denise Lundberg
Media Specialist
Barbara Robey Elementary School
Litchfield Elementary School District

Ralph

Hi Denise,

I remember meeting you in 2006. First of all, let me say that I appreciate your questions, though I cringe a little bit when you refer to TQW (Teaching the Qualities of Writing) as a "program." I'm not faulting you--no doubt people see it as such--but I see it as a curriculum resource. JoAnn and I don't embrace the concept of "scripting teaching."

Now to your question about themes. Yes, I can embrace that idea, especially for the upper grades. I think there's something powerful about the class all writing poetry. I would just suggest these caveats. First, leave some "open genres" where kids have carte blanche in choosing what they want to write about both in theme and in topic. I'd do such an open genre several times a year. Also, I think when we create a menu of themes or genres, let's try to include some that would interest boys. I suggested this to Luke. Many of the genres that are so commonly seen in writing workshops hold little interest for boys (memoir, for instance). I think we could be a little creative and come up with genres (parody, for instance) that boys would like, and would excel at.

Ralph

Denise

Thank you for your insight. I never thought about the power of everyone focusing on one thing at a time...I am a bit of a "whole language purist" as you referred to it last time I saw you, and believe in choice. Happily, you validated what my principal and I talked about this morning. That being that kids need an avenue of choice but that minilessons can be focused.

I apologize for misspeaking about TQW...I can see why you would cringe at the word "program". It is a great "resource".

Denise
Denise Lundberg

Pam

Dear Ralph,
Thanks for this opportunity to chat. I’m using your picture books and novels as mentor texts in my reading and writing workshops, and I love learning of your thinking as a reader and writer. In past workshops I’ve taken from you, you have shared much of your thinking as a writer. I share your thinking with my students and with my adult learners. My students actually refer to you as “Ralph” – you are someone we know in our classroom. Earlier you mentioned that your new book, The One O’Clock Chop, was a challenge to write, and you learned a lot about yourself as a writer. Is there anything in particular that you could share concerning your thinking as a writer in this text?

Also, are there other texts that you absolutely LOVE and would use as mentor texts in an intermediate classroom? What would those be???

Thanks for the beautiful language! Keep on Smiling.

Pam Warren

Intermediate Literacy Coordinator/4th Grade Teacher
Brainerd School District
Brainerd, MN

Ralph

Thanks for your kind words, Pam. Well, let's see. First, in the interest of full disclosure, I should say that The One O'Clock Chop is more of a YA book. (My other novels--Spider Boy, Fig Pudding, Flying Solo--are middle grade novels, read by kids 3rd through 5th and 6th.) I'd honestly say "Chop" is best for 6th or 7th grade and up. There are one or two steamy scenes that you might feel uncomfortable reading to your 4th graders. Of course I'd love for you to buy my book, but I want to be candid.

It was a fascinating book to write. As we worked on it, my wonderful editor at Henry Holt suggested that the book might work best if it were set in the 1970's. I decided on the year 1973 and I had to do a bunch of research to find out about that year--What were the fads? Favorite songs? Newspaper headlines? Sports stories?

My other fiction consists of four contemporary realistic novels. I saw that this would be a piece of historical fiction--a time before cell phones, before the internet, etc. The two main characters in The One O'Clock Chop are Matt, a 14 year old boy, and Matt's cousin Jazzy, a 15 year old girl who is half-Caucasian and half-Hawaiian. Imagine: I had to try and bring Jazzy alive as a character. She is a girl, she's 15, and she's living in 1973! Fortunately, I had lots of Hawaiian teacher-friends who graciously allowed me to ask questions: What did you wear in 1973? What were the favorite songs on the radio? What did you feel about a TV show like Hawaii 5-0? Were you intrigued or offended (or both) by it? Did you and your friends use Hawaiian expressions or pidgin? I had 100 questions like that.

At one point I was interviewing a woman in her 40's named Liana. She asked me: "What year does that take place? And how old is Jazzy?" I replied that the year is 1973 and Jazzy is 15."

Liana smiled. "I was 15 in 1973!" she told me. What a strange sensation--I felt like I was interviewing my character after she had grown up? I asked her: "What were you like back then? What did boys and girls do when they dated?" Etc...

That's a basic truth that surprises people--fiction writers have to do a great deal of research in order to make a book work. You just can't make it all up in your head.

In "Chop" Matt is a clam digger. In writing the novel I drew on my experience digging clams on Long Island, NY, when I was a teenager, which was fun.

Ralph

Richard

Pam,

How do you define mentor texts and how do the books get used? I am not familiar with the term.

Richard

Ralph

To Pam and Richard and whoever else is interested.
A mentor text is a term created by the staff at the Teachers College Reading and Writing Project. The idea is that kids can read a text (novel, picture book, etc) and learn from it so that they can use it in their own writing. Here's the famous poem by Langston Hughes: "Poem"

I loved my friend
He went away from me.
There's nothing more to say.
The poem ends soft as it began.
I loved my friend.

This poem has a circular ending, and when you share it with kids, they can clearly see how a circular ending works.

In Teaching the Qualities of Writing we call these writing models "exemplars." It means the same thing as mentor texts.

Ralph

Pam

Hi Richard,

I see that Ralph has already explained the term mentor texts. In my classroom, I have about twenty picture books that I refer to again and again for various teaching points in my reading and writing workshop. Ralph’s Twilight Comes Twice is rich in imagery and figurative language. Therefore, when I need Ralph’s expertise, I pull his book and use his words. It helps students see beyond the initial comprehension of the text. This becomes a text with which they are familiar (they know the characters, plot, etc.), and now they can look at writerly moves. I love the use of picture books (I use a few novels too), because they are short and work for students of all reading abilities. Picture books make it easy for me to find the information I need – quickly. Plus, everyone is able to discuss the same text. Thanks for the opportunity to talk to both you and Ralph.
Have a great day, and don’t forget to smile,

Pam Warren

Priscilla

Twilight Comes Twice is one of the very best books to help students see, feel, and hear the craft of writing. It's also an excellent vehicle to use micro-texts - taking a segment of a piece of writing or text and using it to teach a particular aspect of the craft. I've used sentence frames from this story with students as a scaffold to help them expand their own vocabulary and writing. They love them, and then use the experience as a springboard for their own writing.

I am currently mentoring a couple of teachers who work with deaf students in high school who are still reading at about a 2nd or 3rd grade level. Consequently, these students are unable to handle Shakespeare or Hemingway, which are req