TRANSCRIPT

 An Online Discussion About
          Early Literacy
 With David Matteson and
           Deborah K. Freeman
          Co-Authors of

     
 Assessing and Teaching Beginning Readers:
         A Picture is Worth 1000 Words
                           and                   
 Assessing and Teaching Beginning Writers:
         Every Picture Tells a Story  

 
The postings listed below are not in the order in which they were
received. For your convenience, we have relocated the responses
to questions so that they appear directly after the questions posed.

We hope you have enjoyed this discussion as much as we have
and will join us in our next discussion.

Opening Remarks
Darcy Bradley

Dear Colleagues and Friends,

We’re pleased to start another Conversation with the Authors, in this case Debbie Freeman and
David Matteson, who are co-authors of Assessing and Teaching Beginning Writers: Every Picture
Tells a Story and Assessing and Teaching Beginning Readers: A Picture is Worth 1000 Words. If you
 haven’t already, you can read a chapter on-line from each book without charge by visiting the
professional books part of our website at www.rcowen.com.  

Besides writing books and articles together, David and Debbie have made many national conference
presentations together, most recently at IRA. Currently, Deb is a preschool teacher and staff
developer for the Arlington Independent School District in Texas and David is a staff developer
through The Learning Network. Both of these wonderful colleagues and people have lots of
experience with teaching young children as well as working with the teachers who instruct them.
Recently, David was in the Bellingham area working with the Bellingham all day kindergarten teacher
group as well as offering an all-day workshop for K-1 teachers. Since I got to attend these sessions,
I was able to add a lot of visual detail to what I learned from reading David and Deb’s books!  

We hope as we post the first question and response, that you will pose questions to David and Deb
and the group, as well as offer your own thoughts, suggestions, and clarifications to what I anticipate
will be a great, practical, and thoughtful discussion focused on what we know, what we want to know,
what we think we know about how to provide best support to our early literacy learners and those who
teach them.  

Look for another posting from us shortly! Hope everyone had a restful and warm Thanksgiving…. 

Cordially, and where it is unusually cold, snowy, frozen, and occasionally without power in my office in
the usually temperate and lovely North West! (Our whole county has not had school for 3 days, which
is unheard of!!) 

Darcy

Darcy H. Bradley, Ph.D.
Acquisitions Editor
Richard C. Owen Publishers, Inc.
C/O 5811 Giarde Lane
Bellingham, WA 98226 USA
360-592-3001 or 800-262-0787 (9-5 EST)

darcybradley@earthlink.net

"Teaching can be likened to a conversation in which you listen to the speaker carefully
before you reply." M.M. Clay, 1985

DEB and DAVID

Darcy

Thank you, Darcy, for the invitation to participate in this listserv discussion and thanks to Richard C. Owen Publishers for hosting this event. We have been looking forward to the conversation with eager anticipation. We know there are many knowledgeable educators on this listserv who will help make this a lively few days. All of you who are reading this, please participate--send us questions and comments and please be sure to provide us with feedback that challenges and confirms the exploration of ideas about early literacy.

Debbie and David

DARCY

So, colleagues and readers, what would you add or ask based on this posting? What new
questions do you have? We welcome your postings....

David and Deb: Both of you have extensive experience working with literacy learners from ages
3-6 and the educators who also work with that age group. In your opinion, what are the most
critical elements for an effective early literacy learning environment? How do you hope
your books on assessing and teaching beginning readers and writers will help educators
of this age group?

 

David and Deb

From David and Deb:

The current research on oral language is clear—the better a child’s oral language, the more likely a
child will succeed in school. The extent to which the teacher can intentionally build in and build on
opportunities for oral language is the most critical element particularly in an early learning environment.
So, when we are designing classroom learning areas or planning learning experiences for our students
how much thought or planning is intentionally given to developing their oral language? It seems that
there is usually an outcome for learning areas and learning experiences but, more times than not,
the outcomes are focused on developing a product such as an art project at the art table, a block
structure at the block center, the writing of spelling words at a spelling center, and/or writing in
a writing journal, but not necessarily with the same intention for developing oral language.

David’s Example:

Just recently I was working with a kindergartener. I noticed he had a scrape on his arm and I asked
 him about it. He said that he went flying off the merry-go-round. I asked him how that happened
and he said that a “big, bad” first grader had pushed it too hard. I told him that it sounded like a
good story to write about and asked him to draw a picture about it. He drew a pretty good picture
of himself on the merry-go-round with the big, bad first grader right next to it. After he was finished
I asked him to tell me the story once more. Again, he said he went flying off the merry-go-round. I
asked him if he was going “as fast as the wind.” With his eyes opened wide, he said yes. I said, 
“Let’s put that in your picture!” and I picked up a gray crayon and drew some circles around the
merry-go-round. I asked him if that looked like he was going “as fast as the wind”? He said yes
and wanted to know if he could draw the wind too. I asked him to finish his story first. “You said
that you were on the merry-go-round and you were going as fast as the wind. Then what
happened?” He said that he went flying off. I asked how he could show himself flying off the
merry-go-round. He thought for a minute and said with a big smile on his face, “I could make a
whole bunch off me going off the merry-go-round.”  He proceeded to draw three more of him
over the original picture of him which made it look like he was flying off the merry-go-round.
When I asked him what he would like to write he said,” I was going as fast as the wind.”

For young children, the oral language exchanges between student and teacher are just as
important, if not more so, than the product being developed. In this learning experience about
the telling of the “merry-go-round incident” I wanted to extend the student’s language. I wanted
to extend the story through the use of description. I was only able to do it because of the picture
the student drew. The picture was the vehicle to develop the story and, more importantly, the
kindergartener’s oral language.
 

From David and Deb:

Both of our books, Assessing and Teaching Beginning Writers (ATBW) and Assessing and Teaching
Beginning Readers (ATBR), give examples of learning areas and learning experiences that are
designed to facilitate oral language. In every example, not only is there a product involved but
oral language exchanges that revolve around the product. Just like with the merry-go-round story,
the teachers in the learning situations in our books have planned for the oral language exchanges
based on their understanding that many of the characteristics of emergent readers and writers
revolve around conversation/talk and the use of pictures (drawing them or interpreting them from
text).

DARCY

Dear Colleagues,

Please note: David and Debbie are in different locations which makes responding in the same email
a challenge, so we are likely to get many separate responses from them. We’ll appreciate that!

We’re off to a great start!!

Best,
Darcy

JERI

Hi,

I also wonder if teaching ages 3-6, as mentioned before, the critical elements would also
relate to teaching grades 1-3 or even higher when the majority of our children are ESL or
ELL learners where literacy has not been a significant element in their previous classrooms
and home lives.

 Jeri

DEB

Jeri,

I believe that students who are in grades 1-3 and do not have a strong command of English would
most definitely benefit from having a teacher who focuses a majority of instruction time on having
those students involved in conversations that develop their oral language.  When we think about
students who are learning a new language there are many parallels to students who may be younger
and are learning their first language. They are both usually stronger in receptive language than in
expressive language, and both are learning how to convey their messages to someone else.  While
those students may be older, the fact that they are in the emergent stage of reading and writing
would make some of the same practices appropriate.  It would make sense to me if the teacher
focused more on the comprehension aspect of reading and writing as opposed to the mechanical
issues.  I know that here in Texas we are currently using the new DRA2 as an assessment.  The
area of that new assessment where we see most weaknesses is in retelling (oral language). 

Interestingly, the students who are often weak in retelling are able to answer isolated questions that
contain the information that would make a good retelling--so they have comprehended.  I believe
that this shows that it is the oral language that needs more focused attention during instruction. 
It is the oral language, however, that is often the messiest to deal with during instruction.  As in
David's example of the merry-go-round, a teacher is definitely having to think on the run and respond
to conversations from students that are always unknown until they occur. It is just not something
the teacher can plan a response to ahead of time.  All the teacher can plan is to focus on the
conversation.  I am reminded of a conversation that Marilyn Duncan and I had when she visited by
classroom several years ago.  When I was doing a rather feeble job of responding to a student,
Marilyn said, "You are trying too hard, just talk to the kid.  When the kid says something, just respond
as you would if a friend had said something to you."  Looking back on that conversation with Marilyn,
I see that I was too worried about what I would take as dictation to focus on the conversation. 
Looking back at David's example we can see how he "just" talked to the kid, but we can also see
the richness of a lesson that is meaningful to the student.

DEB

DAVID

Hi Jeri--

The critical elements Deb and I write about in our books have to do with 1) attention to visual detail,
2) oral language development, and 3) narrative and expository elements. They apply to all learners
of all ability, all ages and all grade levels. Whether I'm working with preschool or elementary school
or middle school, I consider these three areas when I'm working with teachers and/or students. 
Many of the assessments we use in our classroom have components that can be linked to these
areas. When I am thinking about what a student may need next, I think about these three areas
and what is needed to develop them. However, If I had any question about any of these areas for
any student, especially in the primary grades and/or second language learners, I wouldn't hesitate
to start assessing them with the continuums that are in our books. I'm sure the results would give
any teacher something to think about with regards to these areas.

David

Jeri,
I believe that students who are in grades 1-3 and do not have a strong command of
English would most definitely benefit from having a teacher who focuses a majority
of instruction time on having those students involved in conversations that develop
their oral language.

Dear All:

My daughter married a Spaniard and resides in Spain.  I have only rudimentary command of Spanish. 
When I am in Spain, I listen very hard to the conversations as they swirl about me, but unless a
native speaker really tries to draw me out, I never make an oral contribution.  I know that is hard
for some of you that know me well to believe! :)

When I am in Spain I read body language closely, I notice "context" and can figure out many things
as I listen carefully and in context, but I do not attempt to speak in Spanish.  Why?  a) feelings of
embarrassment at how I will pronounce the words
b) lack of vocabulary  c) lack of confidence.

I know that it would take a teacher doing to me what David described as he interacted with the
young student before I would attempt to talk.  I also know that I would need that scaffolding to
make longer sentences in Spanish.  I would not know how to say "fast as the wind" in Spanish
even if I wanted to....I would need to hear it through the ear, talk about it, let it roll off my tongue.

So truly, I believe there is no difference in learning language whether you are a preschooler  as
David and Deb are describing or an adult in Barcelona saying "como se dice....?"  The things that
David and Deb are describing as oral language for preschoolers, I need to help me as I struggle in
a second language.

Katie

DORA

Hi everyone!

I want to step in for a second.... just a few seconds and remind 
everyone about Krashen's theory of comprehensible input in his theories 
of L2 acquisition. As an ELL myself, if what you are telling me or 
trying to teach me makes no sense to me (somehow, I have to make a 
connection, i.e. visual, orally like cognates, or in my background), I 
will tune you out. So, Jeri, for all of our ELLs, we've got to make 
connections i.e. pictures, oral language. If students' backgrounds is 
weak in literacy, then we expose them to those elements just like 
everyone else. However, they must make those connections. And by the 
way, English is tough! I think we assume too much with our ELLs and 
they need lots of support like what David is taking about. Once they 
have some oral language and start making more connections, then we can 
continue to build on what they know. Start by making connections to 
their homes (Moll's funds of knowledge) and their culture. That is what 
they are familiar with.

Okay, that's it! I took more than a second.

Dora
Austin, Texas

DEB

Dora,

That is very well stated.  Thanks for mentioning Krashen's theory--his work is excellent.  Also,
thanks for giving this monolingual teacher some of your personal insight.   I know when people
read the books that David and I have written they will notice in Assessing and Teaching Beginning
Writers: Every Picture Tells a Story that we always work with the picture, block structure, clay
piece or whatever the student has created.  In this way we are always working from what makes
sense to the student since this product has come from the student.  It is what really makes the
experience personally meaningful to the student.  Something that I do in my own classroom to help
make connections to the students' families and homes is to have parents complete a paper that
asks for the names and relationship to the student of all the persons who live in the home, any
relatives or friends that the student may talk about, and any the activities that the student enjoys
participating in with the family or at home.  I include in this note a statement that says the more
the parent can tell me, the more I can help their child.  Of course, this task is easier for some
parents than for others.  I have several contacts that can help me with parents who speak
languages other than English.  If need be, I get these parents and contacts (usually other parents
or high school age siblings of other students who speak both English and the other language--be
it Spanish, Vietnamese, Urdu, Arabic or whatever) and they are able to complete the forms.  It
truly makes a world of difference when I communicate with my students and in their attempts to
convey their message to me.  I remember a particular student that spoke Spanish.  He had drawn
a picture that included him and his dad.  After several previous sessions when I encouraged him
to use size and detail to differentiate himself and his parents, I was able this time to recognize
that it was him and his dad. In addition, he had stated that it was him and his Dad.  However,
there was something roundish that he was standing in or on. It could have been so many different
things--a table, a water puddle, a hula hoop, etc.  I first asked if it was a table.  He was a bit
"dare-devilish", and I could have seen him standing on a table to jump off.  His response was to
nod his head--no.  He kept repeating in Spanish, "Daddy buy at store".  I flipped in his writing
folder to the back page and noticed that one of the things he enjoyed at home was his trampoline. 
Still not wanting to assume too much, I asked if he could show me what he was doing.  He began to
jump up and down with his arms extended outward.  I responded with, "you are jumping on your
trampoline, right?"  The smile on his face was enormous.  I encouraged him to say "trampoline". 
Then I continued to talk about his trampoline and ask different questions such as, "Do you like to
jump high or low (demonstrating each with hand motions).  He responded with the hand motion and
the word, "high".  Together we added the lines to his picture that would help indicate that he was
moving.  I again repeated the English that explained his story, and he appeared very happy that we
had communicated.  Since I knew that he didn't speak a lot of English, and we were working just to
make him comfortable in doing so, I did not move on to writing words at the bottom of his work. 
I labeled the picture so that I could converse with him about it in the future. Our focus had been
on oral language.  The writing would come just a bit later when he was more able and confident
to verbalize in English what he was thinking.  This did come and he soon using letter sound
correspondence for speech bubbles within his drawings and for labels for his block structures. 
I hope this vignette puts meaning to what we refer to when we want to make connections with
and for the child.

DEB--also in Texas

DORA

Fabulous! I wish more teachers would reach out and learn about what we 
all bring with us to schools. BTW- I'm sure you know this- trampoline 
is the same in Spanish...el (un) trampoline... Your description is so 
vivid that I got a true picture of that little boy in my head.

Dora
in Austin, Texas, where the temperature is below freezing today

JERI

I thank you for reinforcing what I do.  I am an English speaker and have a class (school) 
that is 95% Spanish speakers.  I have been in this district where we totally believe in 
scaffolding etc. It just seems that we get very little of the "academic" language of English.  
I was glad to hear that one person brought up conversation that will help students.  That appears
to be one area  where we lack. I can see where that can work wonderfully.  I can see that in my 
conversations with students as well as working in dyads with student learning and sharing.  I now 
have a new goal with my students.  I am also in total agreement as to the visual.  I think that this 
makes great sense as does tying learning to their foundations.  I know that even as an adult 
learner, I have a hard time understanding what is put before me if I have no foundation in that 
area.

Thanks for the feedback.

Jeri 

DEB

Jeri,

I hope a specific example of how David and I encourage students in their oral language in the post
in which I responded to Dora will be helpful to you. I am happy for your students that you see the
benefit of development of their oral language.  If you haven't read our books, please visit the RC
Owen website where you can read a chapter from each for free.  If you think the books would be
of benefit to you,
you may also purchase them on the website. 

DEB

CAROL

Hello David and Deb--

I couldn't agree more about the need for oral language development.  I am wondering if you have
found Marie Clay's Record of Oral Language assessment useful in your work.  The ROL assesses a
child's control over selected structures of the English language by having the child repeat back
increasingly complex sentences.  My recollection is that it is for children between 4 and 7 years
of age and Clay also states that it is of value for up to five years after a child begins to learn English
as a second language.  There is a more recent edition (last 3 or 4 years?) which includes more
American expressions as opposed to NZ English.  If you have used it, how do you analyze the
results; did it impact your own continuum that you refer to?

Carol Scott

DEB

Hi Carol,

I am familiar with Record of Oral Language, but I have not personally used it.  I am not sure about whether David has used it.  I am afraid I know just enough to be dangerous.  While my understanding of ROL leads me to believe that Marie Clay was assessing the child's ability to repeat increasingly difficult structures of language, the work that David and I have done focuses on the child's ability to create meaning with oral language.  In both cases the focus is on oral language but on different aspects. 

I have heard that Peggy Robertson in the Denver area has done some work with the Record of Oral Language.  If so, I hope she will share regarding how she has used this assessment.

DAVID

Hi Carol--

It's been a long time--I hope you are well. It's also been a long time since I have looked at Marie Clay's Record of Oral Language. I tried to find my copy to help with this post, but at the moment I can't put my hands on it. Being an former Reading Recovery Teacher, Marie Clay has certainly had a tremendous impact on what I know about reading and writing. I think much of her work is evident in our books as well as My Pictures and Stories, a writing journal for emergent writers. But probably more recently (and by recently I mean in the last 10 years or so) I have been influenced by the work of my teachers Jan Duncan, Marilyn Herzog Duncan, and Margaret Mooney, as well as various researchers and organizations.

What motivates me today as far as oral language development is concerned is what I understand about narrative elements. These days when I visit with teachers of emergent learners I spend a lot of time talking about instruction that's developmentally appropriate and academically rigorous. To me that means that much of the instruction of young children has to do with oral language (that's the developmentally appropriate part) as it applies to narrative and expository elements (that's the academically rigorous part). I want my all my emergent readers and writers to understand how stories work. I know that the more they understand stories, the better readers and writers they will be. The example of the kindergartner being pushed too fast on the merry-go-round was a good example of this. As I listened to the story he told me--I went flying off the merry-go-round--my thoughts went straight to what he knew about stories. From that sentence I knew he had a character (himself--I), a setting (the merry-go-round), and a significant event (flying off). I thought about what he needed to make it a better story and I decided that it lent it self for more description, especially sensory detail. I knew I had made the right choice when he decided that he wanted his story to say, "I went as fast as the wind."

Not too long ago I was observing a teacher working with second language learners. She was working in a small group and they were getting ready to carve a pumpkin--a great oral language experience for second language learners. It was a good lesson. When the teacher was through with the lesson we talked about how we extend language. We talked about having a structure to do that. The structure we discussed was the narrative elements--character, setting, significant event, beginning/middle/end, plot, theme, description, dialogue, and sensory detail. When I asked her how any of those would have impacted her lesson with regards to language, she immediately said description--I should have had the students focus on describing the outside of the pumpkin (color, shape, size) and maybe sensory detail for the inside (squishy, yucky).

Every time I work with young learners I think about how I can advance what they understand about how stories work. Whether the students are mainstream learners, second language learners, or special education learners, I know that in developing their "story" concept I am impacting their oral language.

David

MARCIA

Hi ya David, Deb, Carol and all,

David, you have hit upon something so key here. It's not so much analyzing how the language
structure of a second language learner fits into an English model, which, in my experience was what I experienced giving the Record of Oral Language. Rather, it's about having narrative elements in one's head,

listening for his/her strengths as we assess on the run, and teaching to the narrative element that the student is oh so close to. More teachers of older newcomers must get this method in their heads so older learners don't

suffer such humiliation. Of course the proof of solid oral language instruction is the strong transfer to drafting!

Good work!

Marcia in Dearborn

DAVID

Hi-ya Marcia,

I liked your last line, "Of course the proof of solid oral language instruction is the strong transfer to drafting!" That is exactly why I do what I do with kid's oral language--developing the reader and writer. Thanks.

David

CAROL

Marcia and David and Deb and other friends old and new-

I am now wondering if you do any small group instruction to support the development of the narrative element for these young learners; or is it all pretty much one on one dialogue? If so, what does it look/sound like?

Carol

DEB

Carol,

I am going to dive into how we try to develop the narrative elements with the students' writing. Hopefully, David will discuss reading. Most of the work that we do in PreK writing is more of a one-to-one nature. In an earlier post to Dora in Austin, I detailed how I worked with a student who had very limited English. My focus for him was to secure the significant event of his story-that was his jumping on a trampoline. In this conversation, David has told about a little boy and his scratched arm from the merry-go-round incident. His focus was to have the student add some descriptive language to his piece. These are both examples of how we work with students individually. There are many more examples in chapter 6 of Assessing and Teaching Beginning Writers. I hope these will be of some help. David, would share about the work you are doing with small groups in reading?

DEB

DAVID

Hi Carol and Deb-

That's it Deb, writing for the emergent learner tends to lend itself to more one-on-one than does reading. When I'm working with students in writing, I usually pull a small group together for the sake of time but the work that's done is individual because each student has their own story to tell. Reading is different. The reading I have been talking about during this conversation has been mainly about teacher demonstration and student independent reading in the classroom library but I also meet with small groups in reading to further support my students in playing at reading.

I can and do pull small groups around a single text. I use wordless and semi wordless books in PreK and kindergarten to "jumpstart" many students in feeling like readers. These groups sound and look like many shared and guided reading groups where students are reading the words. I use the same questions. Students "read" in their heads and talk about what they "read". It's pretty exciting to see a group of 4 and 5 year reading. Not too long ago I was modeling a shared reading group in kindergarten. It was pretty traditional. I was facilitating the students as we looked at the pictures and read the words. There were many teachers watching including a PreK teacher. The next day I was in that PreK teacher's classroom and worked with a small group of 4 year olds with a wordless book. The teacher was amazed at what her kids could do and how much it looked like the kindergarten reading group she watch the day before.

Deb, you also mentioned chapter 6. That is a good example of reading a wordless book in first grade. The particular group discussed in that chapter could read words but they weren't digging deep enough into the story, so I decided to use a wordless book. Wordless books or semi-wordless books force the issue of digging deeper because the readers are confined to the print. They have to use the picture and notice detail that will support their "reading". I don't think many of us have realized the power of wordless or semi-wordless books for the emergent or early reader. They have been invaluable in helping me truly understand the attitudes, understanding and behaviors of emergent readers and writers.

David

CAROL

One can sure see the interrelatedness of reading and writing in the use of wordless books for these emergent learners. I would assume that reading wordless books in a small group would also reinforce the understanding of narrative elements and support the oral language development that is critical for beginning writers. Thanks for sharing all this!

Carol

DARCY

Hi,

I am interested in Deb’s recent posting where she said:

“The area of that new assessment where we see most weaknesses is in retelling (oral language). [You were talking about the DRA2]. Interestingly, the students who are often weak in retelling are able to answer isolated questions that contain the information that would make a good retelling--so they have comprehended.”

What do you and David and others think are the characteristics of a good retelling and how it is fostered? And maybe your take on why kids might be good at answering isolated questions instead of providing a reasonable retelling? What is the link between developing oral language and retelling skills?

I have been thinking about retelling and its value, especially for little guys, for a long time. I am trying to expand my view of what retelling means and how it is used to both assess kids and to develop oral language.

Darcy
 

NANCY

All,

Interestingly, the students who are often weak in retelling are able to answer isolated questions that contain the information that would make a good retelling--

I am interested too, in whether you found this more in boys than in girls. Deborah Tannen in her book You Just Don't Understand, talks about gender differences in the ability to retell events. She says, boys (males) often stick to as Friday used to say, " The facts man, just the facts," while girls naturally tend to elaborate more. I often think we assess boys by expecting them to act like girls.

Nancy

DEB

Darcy,

This is just my opinion of what would constitute a good retelling. I believe that it would contain the narrative elements found within the given text. I would hope to hear or read something that included the setting and the characters. It should also contain the problem or significant event. The story events should be in good sequential order, and I would also like to hear some of the book or story language included. This might include some dialog or sensory detail language from the story. If I were having PreK students retell the story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears, in addition to the characters and setting, I would want to hear some of the following phrases: "but this porridge was just right" and "but this chair was just right". Depending on the number of times that the student had heard the story, I might even look for expression or character voices in the retelling. Of course this would be an oral retelling. I am not sure at what grade level the retelling switches from oral to written when administering the DRA2. I know that we have several teachers from AISD who administer the DRA2 in their classes and are on this listserve. Possibly they will comment on what is expected for retelling in this assessment. Cindy Brown and Sally Reasor can you help us out?

DEB

DEB

Darcy,

Sorry that I got trigger happy and sent that last response off before I completely responded. I am wondering if students are able to answer isolated questions but unable to give a good retelling because they are not used to doing so. This might be a reflection of what has been expected of them up to this point. If they have been in classrooms where tests/assessments have only asked for isolated answers, then being left to their own devices to formulate this retelling is like testing what hasn't been taught. Even in classrooms where there is lots of conversation, there may have not been the expectation that students would retell a story from beginning to end, but only discuss certain parts of the story. As David has emphasized, the narrative and expository elements should be what drive our conversations with students. If these elements are constantly in the forefront of our conversations about the students' writing or their reading, then these elements will be a natural way for them to express their thoughts. I think this would be the link between oral language and retelling.

DEB

DAVID

Darcy--

I think you are right in wanting to expand your view of what retelling means for assessing kids and developing oral language. I was not too surprised by Deb's comments on the weakness with retellings, as upper grade teachers often talk of comprehension issues with many of their students. For me, playing at reading is a developmentally appropriate way to get students to retell stories which can have a significant impact on later instruction and learning.. With the appropriate support, playing at reading can act as an independent activity within the classroom library that supports many emergent behaviors. These emergent behaviors are the foundation for later reading behavior.

If you look at the descriptors for emergent reading behavior there is a strong emphasis on comprehension, such as retelling. For example, emergent reading behaviors include: plays at reading, handles books confidently, interprets pictures, uses pictures to predict, retells a known story in sequence, develops a memory for text, focuses on some detail, explores new books, returns to favorite books, chooses to read independently at times. When Deb described her understanding of retellings, she touched on many of these descriptors. But I wonder how much of the time these descriptors of emergent behaviors are a focus of our instruction? I especially wonder about this when you look at the attitudes of emergent readers and writers. Do our youngest readers (PreK and kindergartners) feel like readers and writers? I think getting kids to play at reading through the retelling of stories goes a long way in helping children feeling like readers and writers as well as extending their language.

I am working with a district preschool in Colorado who is working on supporting their students in the retelling of stories through repeated readings. The expectation is that some stories will be read four times. The first reading is introducing the book to the students. The second reading is helping students make connections to the text. The instruction on these first two readings focuses more on the whole group. The third and fourth readings are more student directed and may occur in small group. During the third reading, students work with the teacher on interacting with the book where the student may take over some of the reading. The fourth reading has to do with extending the book which would include some sort of activity--art/gross motor/play. The book will ultimately end up in "favorite book section" of the classroom library for the student to practice retelling the story with a reading partner.

David

KIM

Deb,

I'm glad Darcy brought up retelling, as this is an area I've been
thinking a lot about lately also.  How good a measure of comprehension
do you feel retelling gives us?  Is it possible to "do well" on a
retelling rubric and not have a deep understanding of a story and vice
versa?  

Kim Jankowski, Principal

Coburn School
39 Fairhome Avenue
Battle Creek, MI 49015
(269) 965-9731 

DEB

Kim,

In short, yes I do think that retelling can be a good measure of comprehension. After you posed this question there was excellent post by Cindy Brown. She discusses what constitutes a good retelling. If the rubric used for retelling does not include the points she mentions (especially the inferencing; connections; and the author's main idea, message, or lesson) then a student could do well on a retelling rubric and not have a deep understanding of the story.

DEB

CINDY

To All

As it seems many of us have been doing lately, I have
been really reflecting on the art of retelling--just
presented a professional development session on it
this week--and here is what my second graders and I
came up with for a good narrative retelling-
-readers tell the IMPORTANT parts of the story
(events)
-readers can pick out little details vs. big ideas
-readers use some of the characters' dialogue
-readers tell about the setting and if it changes
-thoughts you figured out about the story
(inferencing)
-readers tell about connections
-readers tell who the characters are--use their NAMES
-readers tell the author's main idea, message, or
lesson
-readers tell how the problem gets fixed
we came up with this list based on the narrative
elements we have studied and our knowledge of what
makes a good personal narrative in our writing.
At this point in second grade, most of their retelling
is oral-either one-on-one or collaboratively as a
class or small group with me recording.  The DRA2
switches to written responses at the end of second
grade level (DRA 28--BYL F4).  I think a good
retelling has to show the readers ability to synthesize
and make connections--it can't just be a literal
recounting of the text.  If the student doesn't
include inferential thinking in the initial
retelling, I ask them questions to see what they know.
The DRA 2 comprehension piece includes sections on
reflection and interpretation in addition to the
summary or retelling (depending on the level).  As Deb
stated, this is the area that we see needs a lot of
growth--teachers are frustrated at the written
response part, especially.  I think it all goes back
to the child's oral language development.  If they
can't say it, they can't write it!
I seem to remember at some point Jan Duncan or maybe
Bonnie or Marilyn saying that Marie Clay is not a fan
of retelling immediately after a running
record...anyone have any thoughts on this?

Cindy B. 
in Arlington with Deb

KATIE

Dear All:

I am going to play devil's advocate on "retelling". I am an avid reader. Right now I am reading a book about the Roman empire that fascinates me. However if I were forced to do a retelling I would probably fail it, as measured by a rubric.

I could tell you many thoughts and reactions I have had regarding events I am reading about. I could tell you how I have made some connections for myself to current ways of life and old Roman habits.

I am simply cautioning. I believe it is important to:

a) have conversations with students about books

b) listen carefully to what students say about books they read

c) pay particular attention to whether or not the books students are reading impact their lives....do the books touch them? make them question? leave them wanting more? If I succeed as a teacher in finding books that do those things and more, I will have created an unquenchable desire to read in my students....and that's my goal....to support students to want to read for the rest of their lives.

Katie

DEB

Katie,

Thanks for your "devilish" nature. We all need someone to play devil's advocate from time to time. This comment of yours:

I could tell you many thoughts and reactions I have had regarding events I am reading about. I could tell you how I have made some connections for myself to current ways of life and old Roman habits.

leads me to believe that if you were in fact assessed using a reliable rubric that you would indeed not fail. While I agree with you that in a perfect world we would only need to sit and:

a) have conversations with students about books

b) listen carefully to what students say about books they read

c) pay particular attention to whether or not the books students are reading impact their lives....do the books touch them? make them question? leave them wanting more? If I succeed as a teacher in finding books that do those things and more, I will have created an unquenchable desire to read in my students....and that's my goal....to support students to want to read for the rest of their lives.

However, the world in which we live requires that we use assessment instruments that are standardized or norm referenced. And given the choice between many of the publishers "end of unit tests" and a rubric such as those found in DRA2, I would always opt for DRA2.

DEB

NANCY

Katie,

I agree completely. Although no one responded to my comments on gender, research shows it is critical, and we often short change boys in areas such as retelling. We also need to have boys retell books that have stories or information they can connect to. Those DRA stories often don't provide topics or themes kids like. Many of them are awful. Have one of the boys in the class retell the story of the details of scoring the winning goal in the soccer game he played the night before, and you'll get a much better idea of his ability to retell than you will having him retell the story he read of shopping for shoes. I would also suggest that it is just as important to remember is the "to" in the "to, with and by" in retelling. We need to constantly model, just like we do in reading and writing, what a good retelling is. A colleague of mine suggested this some time ago, and it made a tremendous difference in the students' retelling when I modeled what a great, average and mediocre retelling sounded like, according the rubric I was using as required by my district. Just like in reading and writing, it needs to be modeled over and over. I read the rubric to the students, then I usually start with a retelling of a popular fairy tale and continue through the weeks by using any read aloud that we have done in class. When they seem to be getting it, I ask for volunteers in the class to do the retells after a read aloud. It is amazing how they get better and better. Of course first we have to decide, just what is important!

Nancy

CINDY

Nancy and Katie-

I think you both bring up some very important points. The first being that the conversation is what's important--collaboratively retelling a story as a class after a reading demonstration should be a cornerstone of teaching retelling. Let's also put out there that not every story should be retold--any type of follow-up to great books can take the joy out of reading when it is overused. I also think that what Nancy brings up about text selection is important--although most standardized assessments don't allow students to choose the text they respond to, I do think that we get much better responses from children when they feel ownership in the text selection. I'm not here to defend the DRA2, but it is a reality for us in my district and a huge step forward from our previous assessment-the TPRI (Texas Primary Reading Inventory). It does have the students choose the text they will read (from 2/3 teacher selected books) and has a variety of fiction and non-fiction from the end of first grade and up. Of course it is not perfect, but at least it supports the whole reading process-comprehension being at the forefront before, during, and after the reading. The continuum and focus for instruction pieces are wonderful tools for evaluation and planning for instruction. But as I stated at the beginning of this post, the most important part of reading instruction should be the conversations-teach with a student or group of students, students with each other, and students with themselves before, after, and during the reading. So many kids think reading is something that "happens" TO them, not a constructive process. Deb and David-how do you see the instruction for these young readers helping them to construct meaning while reading from the beginning...

Cindy

KIM

Thanks for your comments about this. This is something I've been struggling with for a while. I just find it incredibly misleading if a teacher assumes a child's comprehension based on just the retelling...it is ONE snapshot. I sometimes find that students don't "do well" on the rubric but if you ask them questions, they CAN have a deep understanding of the text. So, then, comes the dilemma for me...how much time do I spend teaching HOW to retell....is retelling itself a skill that is important for all students to be able to do...or is it deep comprehension we are going for and if they have that, then do we spend the time teaching them to retell?

Kim

RACHELLE

David, others,

Please elaborate on narrative and expository elements you're listening for: do you mean: characters,
problem, solution, setting, etc.? And as far as expository, tell me more, too, please.

Rachelle

DAVID

Hi Rachelle,

Yes, I am referring to characters, problem or what I call significant event, solution, setting, beginning/middle/end, plot, theme, description, dialogue, and sensory detail. When I work with young children, my first priority to help them develop a sense of story. Whether they are playing in centers, or "reading" in the classroom library or "writing" through the drawing of pictures, or just plain talking, I am running what they say through my mental list of narrative elements (taken from Text Forms and Features by Margaret Mooney). My feedback will usually be something that enhances those elements. For example, when a child comes in from recess crying, I will ask them to tell me what happened. I usually say something like start from the beginning--what happened first.? Then what happened? How are we going to make it end up alright? This is sequence--beginning middle and end. I could also say the same thing for description. Do I hear description coming through the child's conversations? It sounds funny but the things that happen to us are stories. It is from their lives, and ours as teachers, that we can help understand we all have stories to tell and the best way for me to help kids tell their stories is through narrative elements. My favorite quote in ATBR was found by my wife. It is by Richard peck. It states, "Most of who we are is determined in those first five fleeting years. A six year old who doesn't already know what a story is will have grave difficulty following the plot line of school."

I know the more they know about how stories work, the more prepared they will be as they begin more formal instruction. If they understand story, their predictions in reading will be more exact and the better they will be able to check on themselves and confirm and/or self-correct. In writing, their planning will contain more detail which will effect the quality of their writing. Because they know that stories happen a certain way, the "I went to Kmart stories" will be far and few between. That is why I spend most of my time in PreK and the beginning of kindergarten focusing on narrative elements. Understanding how stories work doesn't happen overnight. As far as expository elements are concerned I focus on the following list: a focused topic, titles that are usually simple and self-explanatory, a table of contents, pictures or diagrams that contain supportive information, key words that are repeated often, text that describes the topic, simple endings that sum up the "flavor" of the text and connect to the beginning. I usually work with playing at reading expository text when students are very good at using narrative text and can tell a good story.

David

RACHELLE

David,

Thanks for the thorough elaboration on text elements.
Rachelle

CHERYL

Good Evening,

I currently teach Kindergartners in Center, Colorado, a rural southwestern community. I would like to have David and Deb's outlook on the modeling process in writing. Currently, our Kindergarten teachers have visited classrooms in other schools in our area, and the modeling of writing looks different in each. What techniques should be used to enhance student learning?

Thank you,
Cheryl Shearin

DAVID

Good morning Cheryl,

This is a great question. Like all good teaching my writing demonstrations start with assessment. The assessment I use is the writing continuum in ATBW. As I talked about in other posts, I want to know where my kids are with regards to their work (the drawings or constructions they make) and their oral language development. Depending where my students are in those areas, my demonstration might be called more of a story demonstration. A story demonstration differs from a writing demonstration in that it's more a picture than a plan. It holds more detail which includes the use of color. The extra detail is important because it acts as an "anchor" the students need to help tell their story. Color is important because it adds to the description or the sensory detail that I'm trying to illicit in my student's stories.

In my story demonstrations I tell my story as I draw my picture. I talk about what I need to put in my picture. The narrative elements guide me in know what I need to include. Many times I incorporate words within the pictures--I might need to label something in the picture or use speech/thought bubbles, or have noises coming out of something. I save the ending as the part I write down. I try not to tell the "punch line" of the story until I'm ready to write. I do this because I want to keep my student's attention until the very end. I want them anticipating all the way through my story. The ending I write down usually consists of one sentence, which I write below the line. Often I will have one or two students come up and orally retell the story I have just written supporting their effort.

In working with emergent writers Deb and I discovered that many children do not understand that plans result in writing which result in published books. We came to the conclusion that we were jumping way over children's head, way too fast. If a child can't draw and doesn't have a fairly well-developed oral language, it didn't make sense to put them through what we thought of as the traditional writing process and in traditional journals. For these emergent students, the picture is the finished product. When the students finishes drawing the picture and telling the story, either the teacher takes diction or the student "writes" underneath. This is why My Pictures and Stories was created as a student's first journal in PreK and/or kindergarten.

David

DARCY

David and Deb,

This question was posed to you through my work messages: Do you think there is a sequential order in which one should introduce the alphabet, digraphs, and blends to K-1 students? Are there some letters that should not be taught together? and What is the role of letter and sound learning/teaching in preschool?
Thanks!!

Darcy

VIRGINIA

I am wondering do you focus on encouraging children to add lots of detail to their planning before teaching them to write a simple phonetic thought about their 'story'?

Virginia Hernandez
Camelview Kindergarten

DEB

Hi Virginia,

Absolutely! We want our students to have pictures and stories that are rich with detail. In Assessing and Teaching Beginning Writers we do, however, make a distinction between what we refer to as detail critical to the story and detail within any given object in the picture. In one of the age-old early childhood assessments--"Draw a Person" (actually I think it was originally referred to as "Draw a Man"), the point was to note how advanced the drawing of a person appeared. The assessor was looking for things such as: a body with arms, legs, hands, fingers, feet. Also noted in this assessment were things about the head such as eyes, nose, mouth, ears, eyelashes, eyebrows, etc. I think you get my point. With this assessment there was not a story to go with the drawing. Our focus is to combine the picture/product with a story (oral language). The detail that we refer to as critical is the detail that David often refers to as the "anchor" for the student to remember the story over time. As we did the action research that led to the development of our continuum for writing, one of the things that we noticed was the inclination of students to draw what appeared to be very similar pictures (a group of people standing in mid-air). These similar pictures would not have any detail that helped the student remember next week or next month that this was the story about falling and getting hurt and not the story about a fun day at the park. So our desire here would be for the student to add the scratch to their leg, arm, or wherever. This detail of the scratch would help the student to remember the story over time. In addition we would focus on the facial expressions of the characters. More than likely the story about the falling and getting hurt would not include smiling faces. The one about the fun day at the park might include smiles all around. We found that the richer that detail within the picture, the more likely the student was to remember the story over time. As far as the writing of a simple phonetic thought, we might first choose to have the student label something with the picture or even include a speech/thought bubble where they make their first attempts at sound letter correspondence. One or two words within the picture is much less daunting than a sentence. Once comfortable with this we would move to the thought or sentence.

DEB

DAVID

Hi Virginia--

I look at the emergent stage of reading and writing developmentally. Before I work with any student, whether they are in PreK, kindergarten, or first grade, I want to know what they understand about how stories work. The first thing I do before I work with students is to ask them to draw a picture about something. After they are done I ask them to tell me the story that goes with the picture. This gives me an assessment sample of where my focus needs to be. If their pictures aren't well developed and/or they have limited oral language I am going to work in those areas first.

If these students are in classrooms traditional writing journals where students are planning for their writing, my focus would be on getting as much detail into the plan as possible in order for them to tell me a story. For the most part I would take dictation for these students after the picture or plan is finished. I don't necessarily write down the whole story but the most important part. For these students the writing isn't the most important part of their learning, but if I'm worried about getting some sound/letter connections going with these students, I (or the student) can write in the picture or plan in the form of labeling, speech/thought bubbles or noise coming from some detail in the picture. I can use an alphabet card to help the student with sounds in the picture as easily as I can when students are writing their story below the plan. As their pictures or plans and oral language improve, I would go with less detail in the plan and work more on the writing. Hope this helps.

David

JANE

We have been working on critical detail the end of last year and this. It is a huge step forward in our writing IMHO. And most of the kids really get it. I feel silly saying those words, "critical detail" to four and five year olds, but they are learning the meaning.

Jane Clarke

N CANEL

Hi
Seems there are different opinions on inventive spelling for PreK and Kinders. What is your opinion on inventive spelling, and should the teacher write under the inventive spelling, in parenthesis, the correct spelling?

N Canel

DAVID

Hi N
As I see it, teachers are helping students come to understand how stories work. Most of the work for the emergent writer is helping kids tell stories through pictures and/or constructions. In the beginning the teacher takes dictation about the child's story in an effort to help students understand that print has meaning. As the child's work and oral language improves, the teacher fosters the student's ability to do more of the writing. In my mind, once the child begins to write his/her own story, whether it is scribbles, letter letter-like forms, or random letters, the teacher would not write on the same page as the student. At this point, the teacher would either write the story in her monitoring or anecdotal notes so she can help the child recall the story at a later point or be publishing the student's story in a little blank book that would house the student's story with correct spelling. I publish the student's story away from the student's writing because I want my students to feel like writers. I want them to have ownership of their writing. I want them to be risk-takers. I want to develop good attitudes in my young writers. For many emergent writers, writing on the same paper they wrote their story doesn't achieve the attitudes that they are capable and that they can do. Once the student has lots of skills and had many good experiences than I am more comfortable with writing on the same paper they wrote on. This is usually when students are at the early stage of writing.

David

JERI

Hi

I agree with keeping their work separate. I taught kinder for many, many years. I treasured their temporary spelling as did they. If we can honor them as writers, they too will honor themselves as writers. We set that foundation for them. Then we published their writing so that everyone could read their works. I always told them they were special because we could read all types of writing but not every one could, thus the published piece. They really felt special about being able to read their works.

Jeri

ELVIA

David:

I like your post! When you publish in the little books, do you write their stories over with correct spelling? Then do they illustrate it? What happens there? I never know how to get to the published stage with young ones, and fear redoing their work will make them feel that they did it wrong. How have you experienced this?

Elvia Padilla-Medel

DAVID

Thanks Elvia--

I always worry about making my students feel like they are wrong but I try to establish a positive learning environment from the get-go. I start out slowly. At the very beginning of the year my students draw pictures and tell their stories orally while I take dictation. Soon after they understand how that works, I work on getting my students to start doing their own writing. I have them add writing to the picture before moving them to write under the picture. I have them incorporate labels, speech/thought bubbles, and/or noises to the picture which usually adds to the voice of the piece. When they start writing under the picture (which isn't too long into the school year) I start publishing them and yes, in correct spelling. I publish right in front of them so I can make a teaching point, like using a sound (alphabet) card to help get to a beginning, ending, or medial sound. As an aside, I also use the sound card when students are adding writing to their pictures. After I have published their words in correct spelling they do go off and illustrate. Hope this helps.

I almost forgot--a good resource for publishing kindergarten students is The Kindergarten Book by Marilyn Duncan. I'm sure it would be a huge support. David

David

MARYANN

Hello All,

I also agree with keeping notes separate from the child's writing. As for spelling in kinder, around Oct. or Nov. there are several children that are ready for the task of taking on conventionally spelled words. I use a personal teacher made spelling book that houses 2-4 words that come from the child's writing. This makes is personal and the student will feel more ownership in the practice of conventional spelling in their personal writing.

I am in new district that is just barely beginning to understand that this writing and literacy centers is going to be a key change, eventually. I have continued my own understandings of writing, but I am feeling pressured to follow the group plans, and that means more phonics and table work than I like to pursue. Maybe someone has gone this transition, like me, and give me some suggestions on how to get fully back in to an orally rich and story exploration setting. I have an understanding of why writing emersion is important, but have difficulty relaying the information to others.

Thanks for you help

Mary Ann Lovelady in Crowley (moved from Arrington)

DEB

MaryAnn,

I personally have not gone through a transition like you mentioned. I have always been in a district and a building where the literacy practices that we are discussing are embraced. I am certain that it must be difficult to get pressure to do what you do not feel is best for students. I was wondering if perhaps you were to share a copy of Marilyn Duncan's Kindergarten Book with your new colleagues if that might open a dialog. Once you all got started talking perhaps they would be interested in trying some new ideas. Good luck.

Deb

MICHELLE

David,

how does this then work for 1st graders? Do you correct spelling and grammatical errors in their writing? We do writer’s workshop in my classroom. Once the students write a piece, they bring it to me for editing. This is when I help them with errors and then send them on to do the final copy. However, when they write in their journals, I do not make corrections on them; only positive comments are made. Is this appropriate?

MICHELLE

DAVID

Good morning Michelle--

I think what you're doing is very appropriate. What I am also talking with teachers about these days is working upfront with students to ensure they have more success as writers. I refer to it as "frontloading" instruction. I think many times we wait until the end of writing to help students become better writers. But for many students is be too late--the work is done. More often than not the writing is not quality. Many times students don't want to fix or change their stories. The "things" to fix seem overwhelming. They don't feel successful. By spending more time with students up front, we are creating more opportunities to "frontload" they things they need to produce better writing, less fixing at the end. They become empowered. Because "frontloading" involves meeting and talking with students, it becomes our support to help students develop more oral language. When we are fixing things after the fact, the conversation can be limited. With "frontloading" the questions I ask teachers are: Are we holding conferences before they write? How much are we helping our students with topic selection? How much are we helping them find the voice in the piece during the topic selection? When they do have the topic, do we brainstorm the words (vocabulary/description) they might use? Do we brainstorm what word spellings might be challenging for them? The list could go on. What do others think about this kind of instruction?

David

MICHELLE

David,

I really like the idea of meeting with students to brainstorm before they begin writing. Maybe it is because I'm only in my 2nd year of trying writer's workshop, but it is really hard to manage the process (without a classroom aide). I've got children waiting in line for a variety of purposes: to ask me a question, needs help with editing, or need their final drafts looked over. I cringe at the thought that now I have more kids waiting to write a piece because they want to brainstorm words with me. Could you tell me how Writer's workshop would look as a process for a class of 17 first graders (and no aide)?

Thanks!

Michelle

DAVID

Hi Michelle,

I understand about the lines forming--that is probably the biggest draw back to writers workshop. It was hard to keep up with everyone writing at the same time, so in my classroom I used my centers as a vehicle to manage the reading and writing instruction. I had student planning sheets that the students used to prioritize what they had to do for the day. On their sheets were learning centers or areas like: Classroom Library, Book Boxes, Old Spelling Word Practice, New Spelling Word Practice, Listening, Computer, Draft Book, etc. First thing in the morning my students got their planning sheets and numbered what they were going to do first, then second, then third and so on. With this kind of a system I was only working with two groups of students a day. Even though monitoring centers was a hard, it wasn't are hard as trying to service the whole classroom in writing. Working with 2 small writing groups a day was much more manageable.

David

PENNY

Have you heard of Lucy Calkins Units of Primary Study? We're implementing this district wide this year and all grade 1 teachers are finding it extremely helpful with their students writing success.

Penny Antell, Ed. S. Reading Coordinator K - 5
D.C. Everest School District 8602 Schofield Ave, Schofield, WI 54476
715-355-0302 ext. 5883 pantell@dce.k12.wi.us

MICHELLE

No, I have not. Is that something I could get from Barnes and Noble?

Michelle

DEB

Darcy,

These are two great questions. I wish I knew who asked, but they know and I hope they are watching for the reply. Because I think the questions are somewhat related and the answer to question two will flow into the answer to question one, I will answer in that order.

In preschool or for any student who doesn't have a bank of letter/sound knowledge I feel the best place to start is with each students own name and then the names of classmates and family members. When we use the names of students to introduce letters and sounds, then the letters and sounds are in a meaningful and relevant context. When we introduce letters in isolation, students often have nothing to associate the letter with and have trouble remembering the letter names. It is not uncommon for the PreK year to begin with a parent who comes to me and says, "I tried to teach him/her the alphabet this summer, but he/she didn't want to pay attention or he/she couldn't remember them." If I ask about how they studied, the parent responds with, "I got a workbook at the store." Often these children can write their name, but do not even make the connection between what they are writing and the letters. They can write the character, but could not name the letter. In fact I have had some of those same students who would say, "I can draw my name." The point is, the parents had great intentions, but they didn't understand how to motivate their children to want to learn the letters. It seems that the child's name was important enough to the child so that he/she would strive to learn to "draw it", but the parent just didn't know how to make the connections to the letter names and sounds. So in PreK we start our letter sound work with the names of the students. This is done through choosing our helper for the day. If anyone is interested in the procedure, I would be happy to post that. Just let me know. When I have the first parent conferences of the year I give the parents sentence strips with the names of all family members written on them. I ask the parents to work with the names and letters much like we do in class. Again, I will post if anyone is interested.

The above may have answered the questions about the order used to teach letters. I think the order to learn letters is based on the child's name. I know that many of the commercially produced programs that have a letter/sound component do give an order for teaching the letters. These orders are usually based upon how the isolated sound for the letter is produced within the mouth. Generally, the sounds that are the easiest to isolate and pronounce are introduced first. The problem I have with this method is that the letters and sounds are not introduced within a relevant context for the students.

Hope this helps. I will wait to see if anyone responds about the common methods for introducing letters and sounds with Kindergarten writers. If not, I will address that later.

DEB

RUBY

Michelle,

In my kindergarten and first grade class my students must have an idea of what they are going to write before I let them off the rug after the mini-lesson.  Each tells me what the topic is before they leave, and I jot it down.  Once children leave the rug they must find a quite place to write with one other person or by themselves.  After children are settled in and writing they are not allowed to walk the room.  I do the walking, moving from table to table and conferring with one child at each.  This allows other children to listen in on the conference and learn too.  When I confer, other children are not allowed to interrupt and there is no "waiting line."  The word wall is visible to all children and each has an alphabet sound chart and (in first grade--I loop) a personal word dictionary for adding words to remember.
Ruby

ELVIA

Deb

I asked them, because I have always been so uncomfortable with those little letter introduction craft projects. I feel class time could be better utilized, and have a hard time believing the kids will always remember the letter M after making it in macaroni....but who knows, maybe I'm wrong! I also do Star Name, where we study the child's name, interview him or her, and make them a class book, where we draw them and then write their name and our own. (lucy caulkins has featured this in her art of teaching reading). But when you are faced with TPRIs, some teachers feel that they need to teach the letters out of meaningful context just to get em down. We also use Words Their Way, or are trying to begin that this year...that has some nifty games that allow st. to practice letter sounds, but again, you would have to be introducing a few things per week, out of familiar context. What do you think of this program?

Elvia Padilla-Medel

DEB

Elvia,

Thanks for your post. I couldn't agree with you more about the things that are sometimes suggested as ways to teach letters. I always wondered how successful it would be to make a b with beans or an m with macaroni. But, I also know that resources abound that guide teachers to do just that. It was the experience with my own children and grandchildren the showed me how important meaningful context is in learning. Both my children and grandchildren learned almost every letter name and sound through the names of family members and friends. This was done in many different ways. Sometimes writing those names, sometimes making them with magnetic letters on the fridge, and sometimes even with the foam letters that are sold for the bath tub (which happen to be great fro your water table at school). Children can learn letters and sounds without worksheets, crafts, or anguish....it is up to the adult to keep it meaningful and in context. Once the student is "hooked" via the names, we can then branch out to the letters not in someone's name. The point is that we have helped them to become interested, and if a few letters just need to be introduced--the students are ready for them.

DEB

MARTI

I just love the fact that the focus is always on meaning within a relevant context. I have found this emphasis very affirming of my understandings and the specific practices very helpful.

Marti in NH

VIRGINIA

I know in my kinder classroom one of my favorite things is writing. I do my model daily and the students draft on various forms of paper depending on their instructional need (i.e.. a blank paper with a picture box, a picture box with handwriting type lines, a picture box with just writing lines, and lastly a Beginning/middle/end plan with writing lines.) My students are all at varying levels and I try hard to mini lesson with small groups daily after my whole group lesson (my objectives usually are focused to the upper middle of my class for whole group). I rove and take monitoring notes which then help me to plan my small groups. I too 'publish' my learners which I use as my teaching point time. Then we conclude writing time with 'authors chair'. This is a happy block of learning time for me =0). I am now trying as a teacher to balance this time with more systematic explicit phonics instruction ( increasing success for my learners on state mandated testing and hoping they connect it to their reading and writing as well). I am trying to keep this time meaningful and in context but still struggle. BTW I have the new Words Their Way Emergent spelling book (published 2006), I am finding it very useful in my kinder classroom

~Virginia Hernandez Camelview Kindergarten

MAUREEN

Hi Deb,

This has been such a worthwhile discussion for me. I am in a relatively new position for me as a Literacy Coach. I am trying to support teachers in a K-8 setting. It is such a wide range that I am struggling to feel like I can adequately serve all of the competing demands. I notice that the grades at either end (K and 7-8 )often get neglected by me as I attempt to learn this new position. This current online discussions has helped to shift my thinking a bit more into looking at that emergent reader stage and really think about it.

I would be very interested in learning about the procedure you use in teaching the letter/sound connection via students names. I also would love to get the info you share with parents as to how  they can support this process at home by using other family names. So, if you don't mind, please go ahead and post it.

Also, my K teachers have mentioned to me that they would like me to help them look at successful strategies for increasing letter naming fluency w their students. They have mentioned to me that they have focused a lot of their time so far on teaching the letter sounds but are realizing that many of their students can not actually name the letters. Suggestions?

Maureen Wearn Literacy Coach Beaverton, Oregon

DEB

Maureen,

I am pleased that you have found this discussion worthwhile. I feel that anytime teachers reflect upon their practices and dialog with others, we all have the opportunity to grow. Good luck to you as you strive to work with your teachers in such a divergent range as K-8. Now on to names.

In PreK we use students' names as a vehicle to work on letter names and sounds. The idea is that each day we choose one person who will be the helper of the day. The reason I limit it to one person is that I really want to spend a few minutes with the name and feel that if I have too many names to deal with that I won't have every ones attention as we work. What we do with helper's name changes as we progress through the year. I call the times that I go through the entire class as a rotation. For example, I have 20 students in my AM class and 21 in my PM class. This means that it takes about 20 school days to go through one rotation of choosing helpers. There are many skills that we focus upon as we go through the rotations.

During the first rotation, I focus on just recognizing the name. Immediately after we take a brief look at the calendar (not the traditional Math Their Way calendar, but one that is DAP and meaningful to the students) we need to find out who is the helper of the day. I look at list of students and mentally note whose turn it is. I do not announce the name--this keeps the students from tuning out once they know who it is. I want them to attend so I do not announce who it is until we have finished writing and checked the name/picture cards. Instead I write the name. Next, we look at the name/picture cards that displayed in front of the students. We look over those cards to find a name looks like the name I have just written. Most 4 year olds do not look past the first letter, so if their name begins with that letter they are sure it is them. I hold one card under the other and we compare. Then we look at the picture to see whose name has been written. During this first rotation there is not much attention to letter names or sounds.

During the second rotation I begin to name the letters as I write them when choosing the helper. Many students will see the first letter and assume they know who it will be. This is especially true if you have several students with the same first letter. As they call out who they think it will be, I compare the one letter to the several names that it could be (all starting with the same letter). The lesson learned here is the difference between a letter and a word. I say, "Does this D say Debbie?" Then I answer, "No, this is only a D. We need more letters if we want to spell the word that says the name Debbie." So during this rotation the students are not only being exposed to the letter names, but also to the concept of a letter vs. a word. It is amazing how well they retain what they hear in these very mini-lessons because everything is done within the context of something that is very meaningful to them.

During subsequent rotations I continue to shift my focus to other phonological aspects of the names while continuing to also focus on the letter names and sounds. We do things like post every ones name on the alphabet chart next to their beginning letter/sound, counting the number of letters and posting names under appropriate number, clapping out the syllables of the name, playing with the sound of the name (I start with myself--Ms. Debbie-Webbie). We choose different letters and isolate the sound then use it to play with the helpers name (if the chosen letter were B, then it would be Ms. Debbie-Bebbie).

Starting with the second rotation we also sing to the helper each day. I use the tune "Bingo" and these words. "There is a girl who has a name, and Debbie is her name-o. D E B B I E, D E B B I E and Debbie is her name-o." You have to be creative to make the name fit the tune--just add extra beats. I even made it work with an eleven letter name. This is done while pointing to the letters as they are sang. Then the class says in unison, 'Hi, Debbie." Debbie says, "Hi friends."

This all works, I am sure, because of the relevance of the context. It is not magic, just magical. When I have parent conferences I show the parents how this is done and send them home with the names of family members written on sentence strips. I ask them to sing and work with their students at home. When they do, the learning curve is phenomenal for the student.

Hope this was helpful DEB

NANCY

In our district, we use Elizabeth Sulzby's KLP reading and writing in Kindergarten. What you describe here sounds very similar. Here is more info if anyone is interested.

Nancy

Closing Remarks
DARCY

Dear Colleagues,

On behalf of all of us here at Richard C. Owen Publishers, we thank David and Deb so much for taking the time to respond to all the great questions and comments about early literacy posed by the thoughtful members of the TLN Listserv. Although we know that today is the last “formal” day of discussion, I’m sure that there is a lot more to talk about, and we hope that members of this listserv will do just that.

We will also have a transcript available of all the questions, responses, and comments available for you in the next few days. I will send out directions for how to obtain the transcript as soon as it is ready!

Upcoming conferences where David is talking about the kind of teaching and learning in early literacy found in his and Deb’s books Assessing and Teaching Beginning Readers: A Picture is Worth 1000 Words and Assessing and Teaching Beginning Writers: Every Picture Tells a Story are at the following: Illinois Reading Recovery Conference in Chicago January 11-12, CCIRA in Denver Feb 1-3, IRA in Toronto in May Please visit our exhibits there if you go!!

We noted a lot of interest in writing instruction in this particular discussion; if you would like a complimentary copy of My Pictures and Stories, a developmentally appropriate “draft book” for young children developed by David Matteson, please contact me off line at darcybradley@earthlink.net and I will arrange to have one sent to you. But right now, if you’d like to read more about working with young children as writers, you can download an informative 8 page free Teacher’s Guide for how to work with beginning writers: http://rcowen.com/PDFs/MyPixInstructionGuide.pdf

Again, special thanks to our gifted and hard-working teachers, staff developers and authors David Matteson and Debbie Freeman, for this rich discussion! And thanks to our listserv members willing to post questions and offer comments and suggestions as well.

Stay tuned for our next Discussion with the Author topic and authors!

Cordially,

Closing Remarks
DAVID

I, too, want to say my thank you's. Thank you to Darcy and Richard for making this possible. It may not look like it but I know it takes a lot to make something like this happen. I appreciate all the hard work, you, and our long association. Thank you Deb for making this discussion a bit easier and a lot more fun. Working with you is always a pleasure. It's good to know that whenever we come together, in person or through something like this, that it's going to be something that gets me thinking. And a special thank all of you on the listserve. Keep the conversations going. It's good to know that there are people out there who are interested in open dialogue about teaching and learning. It was you that made this discussion a wonderful learning experience. Again thank you!

David

Closing Remarks
DEB

I am so excited to see that so many are interested in emergent literacy, and how we can best support our youngest learners. Thank you for your participation in this discussion. We owe Darcy Bradley and Richard C. Owen a huge thank you for organizing and hosting this discussion. David, thank you for all of your input via this discussion and in all the work that we do together. It's been ten years of lots of learning and lots of fun! I hope this discussion continues as many of you share your ideas with us all. Keep reflecting and questioning--our kids success depends upon it.

DEB

Closing Remarks
RICHARD

Good Evening Everyone,

For the last six days I have been eager and excited about opening mail, anticipating a thoughtful exchange among teachers who share an interest in early literacy. I have not been disappointed. It has been a most enlightening discussion, with stimulating questions and comments from many of you and meaty responses from authors Deborah Freeman and David Matteson.

My thanks to Darcy Bradley for organizing this marvelous event and to David and Deb for their thought-provoking responses. They have done their job by making us think about what we understand and what we do. And it happened because you subscribers were part of the conversation. Thank you!

I want to encourage you to visit the website to see the two books written by our authors: Assessing and Teaching Beginning Writers (2005) and Assessing and Teaching Beginning Readers (2006). Much of the conversation over the last six days is embedded in those books. You will find a sample chapter from each book on line to be read at no charge. If you choose to purchase the books, they are available at $18.95 each.

http://www.rcowen.com/ProfBks.htm#Assessing%20and%20Teaching%20Beginning%20Readers

While you are there take a look at My Pictures and Stories, the writing resource developed by David Matteson. As Darcy said, if you are teaching young children and you want a copy to review, write to Darcy offline and we will send a copy to you at no charge. Be sure to include your name and a street address for mailing.

Finally, if your school or district is considering support for professional development, please contact us for inservices that builds on the content of the discussions this past week. You can access information at http://www.rcowen.com/rcoprfdv.htm or call Phyllis Greenspan at 1-800/262-0787.

Thank you all. We look forward to your participation in additional professional discussions on TLN listserve.

Richard Owen Richard C. Owen Publishers, Inc. http://www.rcowen.com

JERI

I would love a copy of My Pictures and Stories, a developmentally appropriate “draft book” for young children developed by David Matteson.

This discussion has been wonderful and I appreciate all that I have learned.

Jeri Trujillo
"Desire is all it takes"
Terrific Third!

LYNNE

hey all --
 
I did not chime in on this early literacy discussion but wanted to express my gratitude for all of the concise words around spelling and letters instr. and writing as a whole. I think, David and Deb, that your words will help many teachers on my staff ( I am a Humanities Facilitator in Denver) to break some old very time-consuming habits in writers workshop and likewise will focus the kinder teachers on a sequence with both spelling and sound/letter instruction that is more developmentally appropriate as well as REALLY getting it about that all important "connection to previous knowledge" which we accept as the gospel in brain development.

Thanks again,
Lynne Rerucha

CHERYL

Dear Colleagues,

Thank all of you for the wonderful discussion. This was my first experience with listserve, and I have come away with extremely valuable insight in educating my young learners.

Cheryl K. Shearin

RUBY

Deb and David,

I appreciate your taking the time to converse with us. I read both of your books this weekend and am really thinking about how to better children's oral language throughout the day by looking closely at what there. We have art prints that we are also studying to figure out what's going on. We have always done picture walks through books but not through children's drawings. And today, instead of writing, the children drew their personal narratives. We did a lot of talking during the conferences and the kindergartners produced some excellent drawings that I am positive they'll remember tomorrow, for tomorrow we'll write those stories on another sheet of paper. Hope I'll have some good ones to share.

Ruby

MICHELLE

Thanks for your input/ideas. It is helpful!

Michelle