Darcy Bradley

Dear Colleagues and Friends,  

Welcome to our 3^rd Conversation with the Authors! This month’s topic is WRITING AND WRITING
 INSTRUCTION: HELPING YOUR STUDENTS WRITE WITH PURPOSE AND AUDIENCE IN MIND… 

Allow me to introduce Jan Turbill and Wendy Bean, our friends in literacy learning from Australia.
Jan is a Senior Lecturer in the Faculty of Education at the University of Wollongong, Australia, who has
written many books and articles. Her research interests range from early literacy development to the
professional development of teachers. Most recently she has been looking at how technology can be used
in early literacy and as a medium for staff development. Here is certainly one way we are using
technology for some staff development through this listserve conversation!  

Wendy is a well known educator, speaker, and consultant in the area of literacy instruction. She has
written  books and articles, especially with a focus on spelling and how it is situated in reading and
writing. She has taught in the Australian school system for many years, worked with the government
on literacy issues, and designed and implemented a number of professional development courses and
opportunities for teachers. Wendy and Jan are just delightful to work with as authors, teachers, and
thinkers. 

Jan and Wendy’s most recent book is Writing Instruction K-6: Understanding Process, Purpose,
Audience, published by Richard C. Owen Publishers in 2006. We continue to receive many positive
comments from both college professors and teachers as readers groups about this book and its
contribution to improving writing instruction. Thank you, Jan and Wendy, for writing such a helpful book
for both novice and experienced teachers.  

We’ve already received several meaty questions, and we will try to get all of them answered. As before,
we hope that participants will pose their own questions, make comments and suggestions, and consider
Jan’s and/or Wendy’s responses. We have appreciated the level of professionalism and appropriateness
in our last two conversations and no doubt this one will offer the same considerations. Don’t forget that
Jan and Wendy are in a different day and time zone! For example, as I post this, it is 9:33 PM PST on
Saturday, January 20;  but it is 4:33 PM on Sunday, January 21 in New South Wales where Jan and
Wendy live! So, we will be pleased to get their responses any time they are awake and sentient!  

OK! Here is the first question for you, Jan and Wendy! We also understand that you do not live in the
same cities, so we will be happy to hear from either or both of you, as it works for you:  

You’ve both had many years of experiences working with student and teacher writers, and
as writers yourselves. What are some of the enduring lessons about writing you’ve learned
along the way? 

I remind our participants that you can visit this landing page, if you wish to read more about the book,
a chapter, the table of contents, or order the book: http://69.0.129.106/TLNSolutions3.htm 

I also remind our readers that after this discussion, which ends on Thursday, January 25 (US), we will
provide a full transcript of the discussion that you can download for free.  

And as a bonus, there will soon be a STUDY GUIDE available for the book soon. I will let you know when
it is available!!

Looking forward to thinking more deeply about writing, writers, and writing instruction with all of you
this week!  

Cordially,   

Darcy H. Bradley, Ph.D.
Acquisitions Editor for Education Materials
Richard C. Owen Publishers, Inc.  

360-592-3001 PST or (msg) 800-262-0787 (9-5 EST)
mail me directly at: darcybradley@eartlink.net
visit our website at: http://www.rcowen.com/ 

Wendy Bean

Hello,

Thanks for the introduction Darcy. I expect that as we go to bed here tonight many of you will be
thinking about this question too. It has been so hot today I am exhausted...over 100 degrees.  I will
begin with a few thoughts and write more tomorrow!

Your question is a great one, Darcy...and hard to answer simply. After so many years in education my
learnings are many. When I started teaching (many years ago) we did not expect children to write at
all in their first year of school and to write one correct sentence in the second year! So one of the first
things I learned was about expectations! Not to push children but to have high expectations and to
create an environment where it is possible for children to write and be supported. I also learned early
on that audience and purpose was important and to teach this in a classroom is sometimes difficult -
not all audiences and purposes will be meaningful to all children. My learning about this aspect of
writing is ongoing.

If you have our book you will see some extraordinary writing from children featured in Chapter 6—it is
all genuine. Much of the teaching comes before the writing begins. The children in that school write
often and so well, it was (and is) a wonderful place to spend time. The teacher learned about audience
and purpose but that was just a modification to her existing excellent teaching of literacy. The other
aspect of that particular classroom is the wonderful relationship the teacher has with the children. We
can talk about writing but there are so many other things that have to be in place to create a good
learning space. Relationships are always important but particularly so in the writing classroom.

I think since I have been a writer myself I have become a better teacher of writing. I understand the
time it takes, that sometimes it is hard and sometimes you think you will never finish but despite that I
like to write. I think the more I write, the better I am at talking to children about writing and helping
them see what is at the end of the struggle. I get better and better at modeled writing too as the ‘talk’
that goes with the writing is focused and I am better able to articulate what I am doing.  

Wendy
 

Jan Turbill

Hello,

  

Thanks Darcy. I have been mulling over your introductory question as I watched Australia beat New 
Zealand in cricket. I know many of my audience would not be interested in cricket (most likely my 
friend Wendy isn't either) or even know what it is. I love it! And Australia hasn't been beaten all 
summer -  most importantly we beat England!!

So to the question. I have to say that for much of my own schooling and my early teaching I had few 
positive experiences with writing. I perceived myself to be a poor writer (and this included handwriting
I often thought if I could be a better handwriter I would be a better writer) at school and then as a 
teacher of young children. At school I marveled at my friends who seemed to be able to produce these 
great poems and stories when I was still trying to find something to write about. 

As a young teacher I hated teaching writing as much as my second graders hated doing it. What
changed? My mentor Bob Walshe (I dedicated my part of the book Wendy and I wrote to Bob) helped 
me understand that first you have to have a reason, a purpose to write, you have to have something 
to say and you have to have an audience in mind for the writing. 

Second, he helped me understand that when you have something to say then get it down because you
can't do anything with the writing until the meaning is down in the words and sentences and that one 
shouldn't worry too much about this - just get the thoughts on the paper. Donald Murray said writing 
finds its own meaning and your writing often takes you in directions that you didn't initially intend. I 
think this was hard for me to learn and accept. I needed confidence in my writing before I fully 'let go' 
and wrote.  

Third, Bob helped me understand the meaning of a draft and of the importance of revision. Revising 
the writing is the hardest thing to do. It is often frustrating and anxiety producing but I have come to 
learn that the results are well worth the “agony”. Playing with the sentences, the words, moving them 
around on the screen is like weaving a wonderful pattern. I have to say at this point that I now 
compose on screen - the computer has been a wonderful tool for me as a writer.

When I began to understand what it truly meant to be “a writer” and then began to perceive myself as 
a writer, I lost all my previous fears of writing. I then became a teacher of writing, a good teacher - I 
can explain to children writing and how it works because I have “lived” the process, the struggles, the 
joys. I can explain to them how I now “read like a writer” to quote Frank Smith. I will stop when I am 
reading something and reread the sentence, even jot it down in my journal because I like the way the 
author has written something.  

In our book Wendy and I share many of these beliefs and how these are then enacted in the teaching 
of writing. I am a firm believer that to be an effective teacher of writing one must at least “have a go” 
at writing - experience the writing that you ask the children to write.

That's about it for now - it is bedtime here on a very hot evening - it is 10:45pm and still about 85F 
outside. It is going to be another hot one tomorrow. I look forward to some responses when I wake!!

Jan 

Darcy

Dear Jan, Wendy, and Listserve Colleagues,  
 

Jan and Wendy, thanks for your thoughtful responses! And I suspect that most of our Canadian and US
participants are experiencing generally the reverse weather trends you describe!  

I know that there are participants who will want to ask their own questions and perhaps post responses
to what they’ve learned about themselves as writers and teachers of writers and I expect we’ll hear
from more of them soon. But in the meantime, I am going to post a question that I received from
Denise Buckman, a 3^rd grade teacher (thanks, Denise!):  

Thanks for the opportunity to post a question or two.

            I teach third grade.  I am currently using Lucy Calkins Units of Study Grades 3-5.  The
focus of this writing workshop format is narrative writing.  The children begin writing from
their personal experiences.  In the beginning the teacher's role is to conduct a series of mini
workshops to share strategies for developing writing ideas... write about someone who
matters to you... a place that matters to you, etc.

            I am finding it difficult to sustain any real effort from a rather large number of
students.  They don't want to write about their personal experiences.  They don't value this
writing. 

            I am a veteran teacher and my instincts tell me to switch gears, but I really value
the teachings of Lucy Calkins.  Do you have any suggestions or experience in dealing with
children who do not want to write personal narratives?

            Our best stories this year have been fiction for fun stories like the "Great ________
Robberies."  Is there an age group that just does not respond well to the personal narrative? 
What about memoirs? 

Just a reminder, that participants are welcome to send their questions and comments directly to the
listserve and not just through me!
 

As always, and from the rainy and cold (today) coastal area of Washington State,

Darcy

Wendy

Denise,

I have asked myself a similar question in the past and am often asked it in the classrooms where I
work. I immediately think of audience and purpose. Writing does not come easily to some students and
it does take effort, which you are observing is not there for some of your students. We usually start by
getting the students to talk about who they are writing for (the audience) and what the writing is for
(purpose). We then talk about the text type or genre that would achieve that purpose. Do we need to
write a recount? Maybe a procedure? Or should it be a persuasive piece of writing.

Once that is worked out I can help the student(s) review the structure of the text type/genre or help
find a model of whatever they will be writing. If it is narrative we read a few and talk about the
orientation or beginning, discuss the complication etc. Narrative writing is just one of the types of
writing and that in itself has a number of forms-the audience and purpose will determine if we need to
write a story, a ballad, myth etc. So it isn’t really a matter of switching gears...just tweaking what you
are doing a little. Students get very excited about getting their writing to an audience and getting a
response...

Wendy
 

JAN

Denise

I must begin this response by stating that I love Lucy Calkin's work. Her research into early writing 
was very influential in my career, particularly Lessons From a Child (1983), Living Between the Lines 
(with Shelley Harwayne, 1990), and The Art of Teaching Writing (1986,1994). I say this because now I
have to disagree with calling this workshop writing narratives. I would call it personal recount. A 
narrative is fiction - its purpose is to entertain and inform through the building of a story - one that has 
an orientation, complication and resolution and sometimes an end piece of a coda. A narrative is 'made 
up'. It may be based on personal experience but then it moves beyond the “truth”. That is its purpose. 
The workshop you describe here is one that requires the students to 'recount' an experience. It is not 
fiction but real. The purpose of writing a personal recount is to share something that really happened 
and in this case something 'special', 'memorable'. I think for the age you are working with this is rather 
a difficult task as they are at an age when they don't necessarily think their personal experiences are 
worth telling. Another issue may be that they feel “shy”, “embarrassed” about sharing really personal 
things with their peers and teacher. It is not “cool” (is that a word your children use?) As Wendy points 
out it is also important to have the students think about why they are doing the activity. If the purpose
of the using personal experiences was to then turn it into fiction this might change the students' 
engagement.  

Let me share an example. I was working with 5th Grade children and the teacher wanted them to 
“practice” writing description. I decided to use The Twits by Roald Dahl as an example. I read the 
description of Mr. Twit and we discussed how the choice of words made him sound so ugly. I then 
shared a “'personal experience” of a memory I had of an uncle of mine. I loved this uncle dearly but he 
always looked like a scruffbag. I then asked the children if they could think of someone they knew - a 
shopkeeper, a gardener - who they thought looked “scruffy” or “ugly”.  They then had to describe this 
person (one boy described his dog!). I then asked them to share the first draft with a friend. They loved
doing this and I could see how we could have then used this “person” as a character in a narrative.

I think your instincts were right - but maybe too if you discussed the purpose of the workshop and the 
writing more explicitly this might also help. As Wendy says always get the students talking about the 
purpose of the writing and who would be the audience. This begs another question - how do we 
find authentic  audiences? Must we? Or is it sufficient to state that the purpose is to practice
a description  and the audience will be each other?

Good night all. 

Jan 

Cheryl

Good Evening from Colorado,

I have just the opposite problem in my kindergarten classroom. All but one of my students only wants
to write personal narratives. I am teaching a unit on fairy tales and am trying to get the students to
write using make-believe characters, but they do not. We have created classroom books during shared
writing that are wonderful. Is this type of independent writing inappropriate for the
kindergarten level?

Thank you,
Cheryl Shearin

Wendy

Hi Cheryl from Colorado,
  

Great to hear that you are creating some wonderful shared writing with the class. These “books” will no
doubt be popular with the students and will become popular reading material with the children. I think 
it's great making these books and building up wonderful resources in the classroom.

I guess you are doing lots of modeling as well-short focused modeled writing sessions (with teacher 
talk) are very powerful at all ages.

What I have seen done is a shared writing session, writing the orientation for the fairy tale and then in 
small groups the children write a simple complication or a character description. They share those and 
you select one to continue the shared writing...or....construct the fairy tale as shared writing almost to 
the end and get the children to write the resolution in groups or individually. They love this and the talk 
within the groups is as valuable as the writing.

Let's see what Jan and others think. 

Wendy

Kathy

Dear Cheryl.

How much modeling of writing a story do you do?

Peace,

Kathy, Colorado Springs 

Wendy

Hi Cheryl,
  

You have probably been reading the responses regarding modeling-some good ideas from Jan and 
Lorraine. I agree with all they have said about this important strategy. So you can model writing story 
and recount and any other type of writing. I recommend teachers do a short, focused lesson everyday.

Wendy

Cheryl

We begin writing on the first day of school. We begin our writing following our morning exercises, i.e.: 
calendar, alphabet wall, letters of our names. I model writing daily, and as I expect children to write to 
a certain style, I model that style for at least two weeks prior to my expectations. I also ensure that my
students know they will be writing for this purpose.  I pulled a small group yesterday during writing, 
and as we wrote, we discussed how to incorporate a fictitious style into a personal narrative. (I hope 
this makes sense).  This worked quite well.

As for my student who only writes in a fictitious manner, I worked individually with him, and got him 
to write his first personal narrative. It is exciting to see the growth of my students this year in writing.
However, this brings up a new question.  I posed this question to our literacy/writing coach and she 
suggested I post it here.  My situation is that once I get my students writing a story with a beginning, 
middle and end, they become stagnant and do not write more.  I know that they are capable of 
adding details, but should I concentrate on having them add those details, or should I be 
more concerned at making sure that they are using mechanics correctly first?

Thank you all for your comments. 

Cheryl 

Freida

Cheryl,

 

I have a fairy tale reading/ writing unit I use with K and 1. I am a university person so I only have 
them for teaching lessons.  I read books like Bad Boys, M Palatini, True Story of The 3 Little Pigs, J 
Scieszka, Mr. Wolf's Pancakes, J Fearley, you get the idea. Then we talk about other fairy tales we 
know, choose one and write a story together from the point of view of the "other" characters in the 
fairy tales.  Then the interns continue the discussions with the children about fairy tales and the 
children pair write stories from different character points of view eventually getting to writing a fairy
tale of their own.  In these grades it takes time, often the whole semester, and many days of model, 
talk, draw, take dictation, but the end product is a great story that students proudly read from the 
author's chair. 

We write what we read, what we talk about, and what we hear, keep reading and talking about fairy 
tales and they will write about them. 

Freida Golden

Wendy

Thanks Freida

-More good ideas! We also stress that reading/writing connections and wrote an entire chapter on it in 
our book because of the critical role it plays. Thanks for adding that to the conversation.
  

Wendy

Cheryl

Freida, 
   

Thank you.  The growth of the majority of my students this year has exceeded any in the past, and I 
needed the reminder that repetition is vital.  I am also going to implement your idea of the "pair write".
This may be the needed step.

Cheryl 

Wendy

Cheryl,
  

It sounds like you scaffold the writing in your class very well-a great example of moving from teacher 
teaching to independence for the writer. I think this is something that sometimes does not happen in 
classrooms. The leap from teacher modeling or shared writing to independent writing is too quick for 
some young writers. Your posting reminds me of how important it is to individualize our teaching.

Your question is also a good one and Freida gave some good ideas in her posting. Another thing I have 
seen work is Writer's or Author's Circle (Jan calls it Helping Circle which I now prefer too) which we 
make mention of when we wrote about the Basics of Writing. It requires good modeling of responding 
to writing, that is, good questions. (If you use this and listen to the kids it will give you an idea what 
you sound like to the children).

Basically in groups of 3 each child reads their writing and the others ask questions. The small group 
acts like the first audience for the piece. With the young children you teach I would do lots of short 
whole class or small group modeling to give them an idea of the process and the benefits. Because the 
writer is reading aloud the focus will not be on the surface features of the writing but on the meaning 
which is what we are after.

Good luck-it sounds like your writing classroom is a terrific place to be.

Wendy

Cheryl

Wendy, 
  

Thank you for the idea of the Helping Circle.  We already have a time set aside each day for author's 
chair, but I had not considered having them break into small groups for suggestions. I believe that this
will help my students' writing become more valuable and focused on detail. I also believe that this will 
enable my students to utilize the skills we have worked so hard to develop in cooperative groups.

Cheryl

Jan

Dear all

This is an interesting thread of discussion for me. It demonstrates the difference in terminology used in
the Australia and US. Not that it matters as long we each know what we are talking about. I would call
what Cheryl refers to as 'personal' narratives, “personal recount”. A recount for me is what it says - we 
re-count or re-tell our personal stories. A recount is factual or at least based in the reality of 'what I 
did'. It is mostly written in the past tense as we share with others something we did or experienced. 
They can be written in the first person (autobiographies) also in the third person (newspaper reports or 
news happenings). A narrative is fictional often based in the reality of the author but it always has 
characters who are introduced to us in the orientation or beginning. Some problem or 'complication' 
occurs which then needs to be solved -  a resolution. Fairy tales are classic narratives.

So Cheryl what you call a personal narrative I would call a personal recount. Now that we have shared 
meanings around terminology let me return to your comment about your Kindergarten children. It is 
highly likely that this age group will want to write about themselves and what has happened to them. That is 
part of the developmental stage they are in. It doesn’t mean they cannot write a fictional narrative but 
it is harder for them. Freida's suggested strategies are powerful ones to scaffold the Kindergarten 
children's writing of genres other than the personal narrative (recount).

I saw in a Kindergarten where the teacher used cut out characters of the fairy tales and created probe 
questions. Children could choose one of the cut out characters and “tell” what happened. Questions 

might be:  

Where was your character?  What happened to your character? What did she/he do? How did your 
character fix the problem? 

I remember one little girl had chosen Cinderella and her narrative went something like this. 

Cinderella was in the forest. She saw the bear’s house.  

They scared Cinderella and she never went there again.

Some ideas to think upon.

Freida

Jan,

I love talking about the different terminology.  I do find that K-1 students need to write about
themselves, but even more so in the adolescent grades.  We are fairly lucky in that our standard
testing allows them to use personal narratives or recounts.  Our teachers have problems with what
they call "bed to bed" stories, I got up, this is what I did, and then I went to bed. So we introduce
"problem" into the writing through fairy tales.  Thanks for your fairy tale character ideas, this is great.

Freida Golden

Wendy

Hi,

I read 'bed to bed' stories from to time to time but have never heard them called that-very cute! A 
nice idea for children to write about themselves for a purpose is, at the beginning of the year, to take 
a photograph of every child and have them write about themselves to put in a book for the teacher. 
The teacher says...write

about yourself...write what you would like me to know about you in order for us to start the year. I 
have also seen this done when a new child joins the class mid year; each child writes to introduce 
themselves so the new person can take the book home the first night and read about all of his/her new 
classmates.

It is wonderful to see what they write. We would call this descriptive writing.

Wendy

Freida

Wendy, 
  

What a great idea and in our assessment driven world that would be such an effective assessment if it 
were done at the beginning and at the end of the year. 

Freida 

Christine

Dear Jan, Wendy, et. al.,
  

It is truly interesting how the teaching of writing has changed during my lifetime.  As a first grader, I 
could not write until I knew how to read.  If we wrote anything, it was copied and that was for the 
purpose of learning handwriting.  Now children are encouraged to write before they read and most 
children have a much richer immersion in language as infants.

I have recently been working with fourth graders on revision.  It seems so difficult for them to 
accomplish their revisions independently.  If they read it out loud to an adult, they often see their 
errors, but don't find them in peer conferences or on their own.  What techniques have you found 
to be successful for students in  the revision process?  Do you think students should revise 
on screen?  We have them do revisions on paper then have them do the changes on screen. 
Most do not compose on screen.  Also, what are your thoughts on the impact of computers 
on student writing?

From the frigid and snowy Chicago area where the Bears (National  

Football Conference) won today.

Christine Seidman

Literacy Facilitator

Wendy

Hi Christine,
 

Nice to read a comment from Chicago. I visited your city last year for the IRA conference and just 
loved it. I only had one day to “play”' and plan to spend some more time there. The architecture is 
fantastic.

Interesting reading your comments-yes things have certainly changed as you point out. Our schools 
are about to return and I love spending some time with those gorgeous little kids starting school and 
observing their writing. The range is always fascinating depending on their experiences prior to
beginning school.

Revision can be difficult-I was struggling with just that yesterday with a research paper I was writing. 
I was reminded how hard it is when all you want is to be finished! I guess the children feel like that too 
especially if there is no real purpose (in their mind) for the writing...I struggled on and made the effort 
because I needed to present the paper to a company I am doing some work for!

So if it is so hard how do we inspire our students to engage in revision? If I think about my experience 
yesterday I was spurred on by my audience. As a reread and revised I was trying to read it with “their” 
eyes. Students can do that too. There is a piece of writing in our book called Duckmaloi Park (p.73). 
Olivia was in Year 4 and wrote a persuasive piece of writing as she wanted others to know about a 
wonderful place she had gone for a weekend. The teacher suggested she send it to the owner of 
Duckmaloi Park. Luckily, she got a response and the owner said she wanted to use the first paragraph 
in her new brochure! While this was a thrill for Olivia it was an important moment for the rest of the 
class too-the response gave them all a sense of audience. Of course as writers we are not always so 
lucky and our students will learn that too. What started to emerge though was that the students 
started to take more notice of each other’s writing...that is peer conferencing became more “'serious”. 
They started to see that they were the first audience for the writing happening in that class.

I will think more about your questions around technology...what do you think

Jan?

Wendy

Lorraine

Hello Jan, Wendy, and Christine,

I am enjoying the conversations re children learning to write and thought I might share my thinking on
the power of teacher demonstrations on children's capacity to revise their writing. In each writing 
lesson I demonstrate some authentic writing, large on a chart with children observing. I work on the 
one piece of writing over several or many lessons depending on the purpose and audience and text 
type.

Sometimes during the drafting process and certainly when the draft is complete I take time re-reading 
aloud the draft and focus on,  a line of a poem, or a sentence from narrative, or the general statement 
of introduction of a report, and verbalize my thinking

             E.g. Ugh! That word has too many syllables. It interrupts the flow of the poem. 

             This line needs re-writing.

            This sentence has unnecessary words. I need to tighten the language.

            I don't think this information is needed. I'll get rid of it.

Where a sentence needs re-writing I orally try out some alternate sentences. Perhaps just re-arranging 
the existing words. Then I ask if any of the students have a better way of re- writing the sentence. 
Orally several students have a go. With the original text large and visible to all students they are able 
to compare the oral re-drafts with the original. They learn about the flexibility of language.

Plus, sometimes I use the students as demonstrators, revising their own writing. (This is only done 
where the student is willing to revise in front of the whole group). Always this is done, with a reminder 
to all that we are members of a writing community - that we support one another. I will have written a 
small section of the child's piece large on a chart or the student will have done this. The text is read 
aloud and a problem identified:

            E.g. repetition …..and then..... and then..... and then....

            Empty vacuous words...went … went…. Went… said

            Lots of unnecessary information.

The child has time to silently re-read the small section of text which is displayed, and then orally re-
drafts it, with all listening. I find the oral re-drafts from the writer are just so superior to the written 
draft. Other students are then given a turn to offer alternate re-drafting or revisions to the writer. The 
children really enjoy this process. It is left to the writer to determine which changes if any, he/she will 
make.

Jan and Wendy I wish you both all the best with your book.

From sunny Melbourne.

Lorraine

Christine

Lorraine, Jan and Wendy,

Thank you for the suggestions.  Modeling is key to the writing process and your example is a way that 
the whole class can participate.  I think that we haven't done enough modeling with verbalized thinking.
Both must be present.

Thank you all.  This process is most informative.  Thank you Jan and Wendy for providing this arena 
with your realistic input. I was at your session at IRA, Chicago and have been touting your book ever 
since.

Christine

Wendy

Thanks Christine

-I am happy you like the book-very dedicated of you to be at the last session of the 
conference!! I agree with you again. Modeled writing is the key. It is such a powerful strategy for any 
age group. Lorraine's example great to read- a few reminders there about the need to be focused and 
how the teacher must think about the language he/she uses. Thanks for adding that to the 
conversation, Lorraine, as I was reading it I felt like I was almost watching you doing a lesson!

Wendy

Jeri

Thanks in advance – I have a problem with the purpose to direct student writing….. I teach 3^rd grade
and I find they want to put the purpose as 1) the teacher told me to; 2) to prepare for the CSAP; or 3)
to tell about my trip etc.  I am looking for a deeper purpose. How do I explain this to students?

Jeri Trujillo  

Wendy

Hi Jeri,

I also hear those comments from students when I am in classrooms. I sit down with them to read their
writing and ask who is the audience for this piece?...I often get the answers you gave.  I have learned
a lot from Shelley Harwayne’s books about developing a culture for writing-I think this is what Mrs. A
achieved (one of the case studies in our book). I am amazed watching the children in that classroom. I
was invited in to speak to them as an author and they were very interested in what I had to say. When
I asked them to talk to me about their writing and share some of it they gave each other the same
level of respect and attention they gave me...they genuinely see each other as writers!
In Lifetime Guarantees (2000), Shelley Harwayne says “school culture can either support or hinder the
teaching of writing. It is easier to write and teach writing where there exists
                  € a caring social tone
                  € a commitment to using time wisely
                  € authentic uses for student writing
                  € access to literature
                  € a deep respect for language
                  € a love of story
                  € a genuine curiosity about the world
                  € a passion for good writing
                  € a deep respect for childhood”
 
This is a great list and one I come back to regularly and think about-the authentic uses jumps out at
me but it does not stand alone. Sometimes the purpose is for assessment and we tell them so.
However if there has been lots of writing for authentic purposes they can accept that and apply what
they have learned to the assessment piece.

I will be interested to read what others say about this and how they cope with the tension between
what you want to do as a teacher of writing and what you have to do for accountability.

Wendy

JERI

Wendy – You have opened my eyes.

I have something to work towards now.  What a difference these make in my ideas of purpose.  
Thank you so much.

Jeri

Lenny

Jan & Wendy (& fellow listserve participants),

Thank you so much for taking time to share your thoughts and questions on the listserve!  I just 
recently read your book and really appreciate the focus of your third chapter.  It is so helpful to be 
reminded of the changes that have taken place in writing instruction during the past few decades.  As 
an instructor of undergraduates, I really believe it is important for pre-service teachers, as well as for 
all of us, to know how past research and trends have influenced current theory and practice.  One 
addition I wondered about for your section called 'writing as a social process' in the third 
chapter is the critical literacy perspective, especially because it focuses on practices like 
investigating and questioning the purposes and audiences of texts "to understand the power
of writing" (p32).  What are your thoughts on this?  Do you see this as a way to help 
students understand the roles that audience and purpose play?      

Thanks,

Lenny 

(Christine - Congratulations on the Bears' win, but I'm a Hoosier, so "GO COLTS!") 

Wendy

Hi Lenny,
 

Thanks for the feedback on Chapter 3. It is helpful to be reminded of the 'history' of teaching writing. 
I think sometimes teachers feel that there is always something new and tracking the major approaches 
really shows how what we are doing now embraces elements of production, creativity, and social 
process in order to see writing as a tool for thinking and learning. We have had a real emphasis on text 
types (genre) here in Australia-there are 9 that teachers must teach from Kindergarten to Grade 6. 
This is hard, of course, so I have observed how quickly the genres are taught to “'get through them”. 
This has meant a lack of attention to the process of writing in some places. Hence the model we use 
(chapter 5) that tries to show how all these things come together.

I agree that the critical literacy perspective is an important one. It is an important perspective in 
teaching reading so I would hope there would be an element of this in the teaching of writing too. 
Perhaps what we have said is not explicit enough. Maybe you can add to this, Jan?

Wendy

Jan

Lenny

For me, understanding that “writing is social process” means I am aware of how as a writer I can 
“manipulate” my text in order to compose a text that serves my purpose for my audience. This means 
that I must also be aware of the impact that I want my text to have on my audience. I believe I can 
only do this if I am aware of what it means to be a critical reader or what colleagues of ours, Allan
Luke and Peter Freebody, call being a text analyst. As I write therefore I stop (as I am doing now), 
reread my text from the perspective of a reader and analyze it critically. I then move back into the role 
of writer, edit where needed, and continue composing my text.  It is what Donald Murray referred to as 
“'write-read read-write connections”. So how does all this connect to a critical literacy perspective? 
Well I believe that to be a successful writer I must be a successful reader - a reader who can critically 
analyze texts.

I have to say it has taken me about 30 minute to write the above paragraph. I have read and reread it, 
analyzed it critically from a reader's perspective to check that my intended meaning is clear. I hope it 
has worked for you as the reader. Let me know if what says makes any sense.

Jan

Fredia

Wendy, 

What are the 9 genres that you teach in Australia?  Are these usually taught as reading genres 
or do you teach them as writing genres also? 

Freida  

Wendy

Freida,

We talk about the main ones in Chapter 6 of the book and give their features. The ones we specifically 
teach are narrative, recount, procedure, response, explanation, discussion, information report, 
exposition and description. All have a variety of forms. All are taught in their oral and written forms. 
You will see how Mrs. A uses them in Chapter 6. 

Wendy

Christine

Hi Jan, Wendy, Lenny and all,

I have truly enjoyed these conversations and have found them most valuable. I agree with Jan -
readers need to be able to critically analyze text. I find it very difficult to critically read my own writing,
unless I take ample time to write, read, reread and write ad infinitum. I always find something I
missed. I write often and I consider myself a decent writer. But it takes time.

This dialogue relates to my original question of helping students revise; helping students to become
critical text analyzers. Focusing on the purpose and audience are truly critical to revision. We help
students become critical readers of published texts, how can we help them transfer these
same skills to their own writing?

Christine, rooting for the Bears!

Jan

Christine and all

It is through revision that we help children become critical readers of their own texts and therefore 
want to revise so the text says what they want it to say. It is very circular. I believe students will 
come to understand this if

    1. we constantly model it during reading and writing contexts

    2. they understand the purpose for the writing and have a clear sense  

        of how an audience will “'read” it.

    3. they perceive themselves as writers

    4. they understand the power of writing.

It doesn’t happen after one lesson or even two. This only happens in classrooms where the general 
ethos of the classroom and the language of the teaching constantly reminds and facilitates these 
understandings.

Jan 

Virginia

Hi,
  

I teach K and in a low income area, many students come in with no previous school experience. We 
begin writing on day 1.  It is my favorite part of the day and because of my excitement they too begin 
to love to write. My question is with them still being so egocentric in their writing (it is 
generally one form or another of the same draft daily) how do you get them into 'audience' 
and what that means?
  

[~Virginia Hernandez] 

Madison Camelview 

Wendy

Hi Virginia,
  

Lovely to hear you have your students excited about writing from day one...it made me think of Don 
Holdaway. I read his book very early in my teaching career (a long, long time ago) and I can still 
remember that he said...“reading and writing should be one of the most joyful undertakings”. It seems 
you agree with Don! I know I do and it is what I have always aimed for in teaching reading and writing.

I think your question has probably been answered in some of the other postings from various people...
I think modeling is your best strategy to add to their writing strategies. Also every time you read out 
loud (which you probably do many times each day) stop very briefly and say ... “I wonder who [the 
author] wrote this for?” Don't spend a lot of time but this helps them see that every piece of writing, 
that is everything they read is written by someone.

Wendy

Marti

I am fascinated by the discussion of purpose as I am rediscovering it as a necessary motivation for 
writing.   I like the term, personal recount.  I am thinking of a purpose Shelley Harwayne discusses in 
one of her books (I have forgotten the title) which she calls "saving your life."  A colleague who 
teaches second and third graders has used this very effectively to encourage students to write about 
life experiences that they want to remember and relish when they are "old." In this case the audience 
might actually be yourself although many other students might enjoy the recounts of personal 
experiences.

Marti in NH

Wendy

Hi Marti,
 

What a wonderful idea. I am going to look that up and share it with Mrs. A (the wonderful teacher I 
was mentioning earlier). She will LOVE that!!!

Thank very much,

Wendy

Jan

Dear all
 

I have just caught up with all the listserv responses today. Wow, what great ideas have been shared 
here. It is great to have our friend and colleague, Lorraine Wilson, also on the listserve. Lorraine has 
worked with teachers and children in this area very successfully for many years.

As both Lorraine and Wendy have indicated Modeled Writing is a powerful teaching strategy. It never 
ceases to amaze me how engaged students can be as we carry out this strategy. One warning that 
Wendy and I state in our presentations and in the book, is to make sure you don’t try to do too much 
in one modeled writing lesson. Keep them short, sharp and focused. As Lorraine suggests, you can return 
to the same piece several times in the one week.

Let me return to the issue of creating a purpose for our students. I think sometimes we try to create 
purposes and audiences for students that are really unrealistic in their eyes, and sometimes 
impractical for both them and us. For instance, Paul Jennings, the Australian author who writes for the
Grade 3 age group told a group of teachers that he loathes receiving letters from a class about one of 
his books. The children were usually asked to write to Paul (audience) to tell him what they thought 
of the book, or what was the best part for them (purpose). When you think about it - the audience is 
not really interested in reading 30 responses like this and often the children can't really see the point 
in telling Paul about books he has written. And finally Paul comments, he can’t possibly respond to 
each child and this he feels bad about. So how do we get students writing about the book? What can 
be a much more realistic purpose and audience? In one class of grade 3 and 4 children, they had been 
reading Paul's Unbelievable and so on books. Small groups had read a different book in this series. The 
purpose the children were then given was to create a blurb; (they had to explore what a book blurb 
was and unpack its purpose and who the audience for a blurb on a book is) that would entice their 
fellow students to want to read the book. The children in each group first wrote the individual blurbs. 
Then the group came together and picked the best from each other to create the group's blurb. The 
final piece was word processed and designed to add to the presentation of this blurb. Finally the blurbs
were shared and then placed in the library near the Paul Jennings books.

For those who have Wendy and my book, you might like to read the cameos from Mr. G and Mrs. D 
(I am at work and don’t have the book here to give page numbers) and see how they set up audience 
and purpose.

Has anyone else got some ideas about creating purposes for writing?

Jan

Dawn

Hello,

I am really enjoying the discussion and am passionate about creating authentic purposes for students
to write. My students are 5th graders, however, I have had students in 2nd through 5th grade be
responsible for writing the class newsletter. I begin the year modeling and sending home information
from school every Friday and then I slowly turn over the responsibility to the students. They are
excited to write and include their work for parents and classmates to read. This includes everything
from book reviews to comic strips. Just one idea.

Two questions I am wondering about are:

I am excited about the discussion about modeling our own writing, but am also curious
about your thinking about guided writing. Ideally, what's your vision day to day, month to
month?

Also, as a teacher in Washington state, students are expected to write in a variety of forms. Do you
have strategies for ensuring that all children write in each form, while also maintaining the
autonomy necessary for them to be motivated to work with a piece over time?

Thank you,

Dawn Christiana
Bellingham, WA 

Wendy

Hi Dawn,

Once again I am thrilled to hear you have students excited about writing!
We teach children a variety of text types (as they are called here) or genres. We have a table on page
60 of our book if you have it with the distinguishing structural and grammatical features of each one.
You will see in Chapter 6 how Mrs. A got her grade 4/5 to monitor their use of all of these genres. It is
an inspiring chapter which we cannot take credit for as it was all Mrs. A’s work. Perhaps there should
be another chapter as since the book was printed they have continued their writing-they were so excited
being published in a real book!

These genres are introduced through reading and modeling from the first year and built on year after
year so that their understanding and use of the genres get more and more sophisticated. There are
some examples of rubrics in the back of the book to use for assessment. The assessment piece is
something we haven’t really talked about yet but good assessment is what is needed so we know what
to teach next. The whole school approach is very important too.

Wendy

Mary Jo

Good morning...
  

I have enjoyed reading comments from caring teachers who want to make a difference in young lives. 
I have to put in a special hello to Lorraine (:) )...I lived in Melbourne for 3 years and was lucky enough 
to know the wonderful work she does.  I have used Jan and Wendy's books for years...they truly know 
the writing process.

I'm chiming in today because I regularly teach "Writing in the Elementary School" in our masters 
program.  I always ask the teachers to begin by being writers themselves.  I get some resistance at 
first "No, no....you are supposed to be teaching us to TEACH writing"...but they soon discover when 
they put pen and paper together and struggle with audience and purpose they have insights into the 
process they can share with children.  Many of the teachers choose a day of the week to sit and write 
with the students, rather than doing the usual conferencing.  Begin with your own personal 
narrative...how did you begin?  Where did you get your idea?  One approach I use with teachers (and 
children in schools I visit) is to begin by drawing a map of some place important to you. Adults will 
often do their bedroom growing up...a grandparents' home...a family member's backyard.  Children 
can "map" any place of importance (you also gain insights into their lives). Then, begin labeling the 
map.  Just write words all over it to label the "place".  Memories of particular events related to the 
map can be added as just sentence fragments.  A story seems to always "emerge". You have lots of 
interesting phrases and vocabulary to use in your story.

Try this one - challenge yourself to be a writer.

Missing the warm January weather of Sunny 

Australia (it finally snowed in Ohio!),

Mary Jo Fresch

Associate Professor

School of Teaching and Learning, Ohio State University 

Wendy

Thanks Mary Jo
 

-I think that is a terrific idea. Another one to share with the teachers I will be working with!

In Mrs. A's classroom (chapter 6) there is a piece of writing by Heather. Mrs. A had read a piece from 
Charlotte's Web as an example of description. The children then completed a Y chart...looks like...feels 
like...sounds like...about their bedroom and then used that as a basis for their own description. Not 
unlike your example! I have done this workshop many times and get fantastic results.  We then go to 
whatever they are writing and think about their descriptions and perhaps edit them based on what we 
have found out. This direct link to the writing is always critical.

One of the things I notice when I review the results of our state writing tests here is the area of 
description. Mostly descriptions are “visual”' and often not what you hear and see or feel. The Y charts 
can help. Also the results show description is usually through the use of adjectives. If we read and 
discuss wonderful descriptions from the books we read we can help our students so the other ways a 
character or setting can be described.

Keep those teachers writing!

Wendy

Jan

Thanks Mary Jo

- Great to hear from you. I love the challenge you have set for us all. It reminds me of an incident with
a Grade 2 teacher I was working with many years back. Di was asking her class to write narratives.
They had been reading narratives and they talked about what needed to be in a narrative - characters,
a setting etc. The day came when she decided to model for her class how she might begin a narrative -
she began having at least thoughts about a character and a setting. She wrote and the children
watched intently. She stopped, reread what she had written and paused, and paused and paused. Di
looked at me sitting in the back of the room taking notes with panic in her eyes. "This is hard" she
said to me. "I can’t do this - I can’t write a narrative just like that!" Then as if she suddenly
remembered the children all sitting there, she said to them, "No wonder you have been finding this a
challenge. It is hard isn’t it?" They all agreed with her. Di ripped the paper of the flip chart and then said, "Let's brainstorm what this narrative might be about". With that they began to work together to develop a mind map and from that many days later came the jointly constructed narrative.
Has anyone else had this experience? Have you tried to write what you ask the class to
write?

Jan

Ruby

Hi Wendy and Jan,

It is hard writing in front of the class. Sometimes my tries are not so good, but my kindergartners are
willing helpers.

I love the idea of the Y chart. Just what I needed to help them understand that mental images can be
painted with sounds and feelings too. Thanks for a new way to teach and model this.

Ruby 
Who HAS to buy your book! 

Jan

Ruby
 

If you like these ideas then you must have the book as there are so many other great ideas in it!!

Cheers

Jan

Wendy

Ruby
  

It is hard writing in front of a class but like you I always find the children are very patient and helpful. 
Mind you the fact that it is sometimes hard is the reason it is not done at all in many classrooms. Hope 
the Y charts are fun...it is not a new idea but it is still a good one. I use them for management too.

Wendy

Ruby

I'm getting it.  I'm getting it.  Just have to decide if I want it sent to school or home.  Sometimes my 

family has to eat books for dinner. . .

Ruby

Jan

Hi Ruby
  

Good to hear.. Seriously though I think that the need to have books for professional purposes is one 
that is a key indicator of a good educator. We may not read them from cover to cover but we know 
that we have them and can refer to them when needed. I get most frustrated when I hear some 
teachers say that they don't read and would only buy books full of blackline masters.

So happy reading and even happier teaching on writing. I hope you find lots of support and ideas in 
our book. I know as authors that was our purpose.

Cheers

Jan

Ruby

Jan, 

I'm looking forward to the read!  Just ordered it, and it's being sent to school.

Ruby

Nancy

Hi

I am working as a writing intervention teacher for kinders and first graders for half a day in a new
school this
year. I am having a lot of success with the first grade groups, but even though I am regularly a kindergarten teacher, I am having a very difficult time with the kindergarten group. I try to think what
I would do with these children if they were in my own class, but I only have them for 20 minutes a day
as a pull-out teacher, so I know little of their history or classroom experience. These 4 students are
selected by the teacher based on academic need and know few letters or sounds even half-way through
the year They also have MAJOR behavior problems. It seems by the time they get to my little room (it
is actually a closet) and I settle them into writing, there is no time left. This is the schedule and I am
stuck with it.

I feel they should be writing while they are with me, so I have them pen-paling to my regular morning
K class. It isn't working well. They just don't seem to be making much progress and we all get very
frustrated. What do you think the starting point should be with these children and what you
think would be the most valuable use of my time in those 20 minutes of writing instruction?

Nancy Creech

Lorraine

Hello Wendy, Jan, Nancy and Ruby,

In response to Nancy’s query re her four little boys, behavior and 20 minutes. I just thought I might
share something we tried with some of the children at Deer Park North, a school on the maximum level
of disadvantage. Many of these children were in the very early, early stages of writing and we found
that by engaging them in an authentic labeling activities, where the writing activity required the writing
of single (sometimes two words), that this appeared to make the writing more accessible for them. I
think the writing task did not appear so big, to these little strugglers. We saw much greater evidence
of them making sound/letter connections when just required to label. This built their confidence in
themselves as writers. I list two such activities:
 

1. Related to a study of  ‘Me’

Children drew the outline of their partner on large piece of butcher’s paper and then each child
colored, and filled in the features on his own outline, and finally labeled their special features
e.g. ‘black eyes’, ‘legs’, ‘curly hair’

2. Integrated study of living things. We took lots of fresh flowers from our gardens and magnifying
   glasses (not from our gardens) and spread them on the children’s tables. They had a wonderful
   time using the magnifying glasses and talking about the parts of the flowers they could see.
   Then they were asked to be botanical illustrators and do detailed drawings of just one of the
   flowers. When finished they were asked to label the parts  - ”petal”, “‘stem” etc.

Lorraine

Wendy

Lorraine

That is a great suggestion, Lorraine. Twenty minutes is such a short time especially when you have to
pull the kids out. I was battling to think of a suggestion as I was stuck on the time issue! Thank you,
Lorraine! This activity has lots of learning associated and has the potential to be very enjoyable.

Wendy

Ruby

Hi Nancy, Lorraine and All,

I teach kindergarten too, and would very much like it if someone worked 20 minutes per day on
writing with four of my students. Since the time and pull-outness is non-negotiable, I'd want you to
concentrate the time on a short mini-lesson with the rest of the time spent on all four children writing
in whatever way made sense for them. During the 15 minutes left I'd concentrate on helping them
one-on-one, researching, deciding, and teaching one or two children per day, one thing that would
help them become a better writer today than they were yesterday. The other two children would be
close enough to listen in and benefit from whatever conferring you do with an individual.

Because they are at such a beginning level, I'd make the mini-lessons very basic, always using a text
to show the children an example of what I mean.
Some areas to start with:
Writers use letters to make words.
Writers write about many different things.
Writers use different kinds of paper for different purposes.
Writers put spaces between words.
Writers tell others about their lives.
Writers make lists.
Writers write a lot.

Audiences for this group could be the children in their homerooms, a lunchroom group, or parents
invited for a special celebration of the group of four when a piece is finished. I'd try to get them
working on a piece over time. And I'd work with them to tell their stories in pictures and then have a
go at writing. Mostly, I'd want you to work on one teaching point at a time.

Hope this is a little helpful. I don't know who thinks up these impossible (NCLB) schedules . . .

Ruby

Sherri

Dear Lorraine,

I taught kindergarten on 3 different occasions and had the opportunity to have them start drawing and 
writing from The Wright Group stories such as Mrs. Wishy Washy and many leveled books from this 
resource. They also have classes and teach teachers which is wonderful.

There are also many strategies which I used from Joe Cunningham during reading and Ohio Reading Recovery.

Good Luck!

Sherri

Lynne

Nancy

- as I read of your struggles with the little guys, it truly made me revisit my first Literacy Learning
conference in which every developmental baby step along the way was honored and recognized and nudged to the next step (for us as well as the kiddos)--- If we are truly to have "gut level" desire and
understanding of writing by four and five year olds, we must be willing to take it slowly and give them
tons of support and choices---- the idea that a picture is a story and that kids can put down a few
wiggles and noodles yet read them back to you ... is a great start--- then nudge by showing them
"how the dictionary spells those words" and have them read their "writing" back to the group--- it is
all a game at this point as many reluctant writers are in danger of turning off to writing at an even
earlier age ---- so tread lightly and do what your heart says... they all have dramatically different
needs and some have had almost no experience with people outside of school writing for fun or lists
or whatever---- ok this seems to be a stream of consciousness .... I just remembered how fun it was
for my own girls to "take orders" on waitress pads (at any office store) --- if you can just get them to
think of themselves as writers, it is most of the deal at this age--- We have found through a lot of
research that a great many reluctant writers are also visual-spatial learners which is quite a hurdle.
These little folks (most often boys) are much more willing to get after the writing business if there are
choices, cool things to write with and on and a physical environment that works with their body....
maybe you just set the timer for 7 minutes for a picture and then let them write as you "translate"
under their writing and in the same kind of marker or pencil so that it doesn't look like a "correction"
but them gives them something to read. Don't worry about where they sit or lay to do their writing as
it seems that your closet will contain them sufficiently.
Pretty wordy but I guess I see folks everyday that are working harder than they should with these
tiny people who barely have the coordination for a proper pencil grip and are in serious need of
experimenting and messing around with writing--- so relax and let it flow... it will.

Lynne Rerucha
Humanities Facilitator
Denver Public Schools

Wendy

Yes Lynne

-There are some more good ideas there. I guess it is about knowing your children and being able to
meet individual needs. I have been in a school this morning (preparing for first day back next week)
and this was our main topic of conversation. As you point out there will be different starting places for
different kids. We have great success with what we call “‘have-a-go” where the young writers do exactly that-they are well aware it is not perfectly correct but try. As we introduce this we model using
the word wall, alphabet strips, sounding out and a range of strategies so that the students begin to
learn there are a range of ways to getting to the word they want. When the teacher talks with young
writers they are commended for their efforts-the teacher might be able to say...that’s a terrific try,
here’s how I would write it...or here is the word you want on your word tower...or I know I saw that
word in Night Noises [or whatever] when we were reading yesterday...etc

Wendy

Jan

Lynne,
  

I think your suggestions here are useful reminders that writing is a social process and we write for real 
purpose and audiences. On page 4 of our book we share Sam's writing. He clearly understood the 
power of writing, and the role that purpose and audience played. He also wanted to write because the 
writing was contextualized as you are suggesting in your response. He still understands this. Sam is 
now 14 and is very  clear about the skills and process of writing. He was staying with me last week as 
it is school vacation here. I had discovered in my moving some old coins that my grandmother had kept 
and I asked Sam whether he wanted them. “'I could sell them on eBay”, he told me. So he set about the 
task of doing this. I cleaned the coins, he researched (read) on eBay what other such items were selling 
for and if indeed it was worth putting the coins up for sale. We photographed them (this was a must he 
told me - visual literacy) and then he proceeded to put each item on eBay with a visual. When it came to 
the description, I wanted to say something like, “A 1926 Australian threepence prior decimal currency.”
“No, no”, Sam cried, “We have to SELL them”. So he took over and wrote, “'A rare 1926 Australian 
threepence in mint condition. A unique bargain for any collector. Only on sale for three days so begin 
bidding now. Remember the highest bidder wins this wonderful find.” He checked his spelling, asked 
me whether a word like “unique” was OK and read and reread it aloud to see if it “sounded exciting 
and irresistible”.

I share this because we need to help children understand that writing is contextual and how we use it 
for so many reasons other than writing “'school” writing.

Jan

Nancy

Dear Lorraine and Lynne,

These are great ideas. I am excited about trying them. I just have to be careful about having the
children spread out because as I mentioned, we are quite literally meeting in a closet and it has a kiln
in it as well as all the audio visual equipment and lots of old computer hardware.
Teaching is such an adventure. Today I did some modeled writing and it went really well.

Nancy

Wendy

Hi Nancy...

So glad the modeling went well. Interactive writing might be good with these children too. I think you
are a miracle worker doing anything for 20 minutes (or however many minutes are left when you get
there) in a closet!!!

Wendy

Jan

Nancy

Glad to hear you trying modeled writing. With such a small group you could also do a lot of “shared 
writing” where you and the children work together to write. This is what Ms. D did in chapter 7 of the 
book. Ms. D modeled how to write a letter for the purpose of inviting the Easter Bunny (audience) to 
the school. The children helped her write it at times. They were all so proud of the letter when they 
finished. And of course the Easter Bunny came!!
 

Jan

Carol

Nancy,

I have read your entry multiple times because I am so frustrated for you and your students that I
have been shaking my head in disbelief. We know that pulling children out is not a successful strategy
and we know that homogeneously grouping students is not a satisfactory strategy either. We know
that environment matters and we know the students with the most challenges need the best
circumstances and yet we put them in closets and for 20 minutes to work on something as important
as writing.

I have continued to put myself in your place and I know I would spend those 20 minutes reading,
reading, and reading to those little kids. I would find the most engaging, funny, entertaining books that
are an example of good literature and I would read and talk with these kids everyday. I would spend
time getting to know them and having fun with them so that our time together is something we all look
forward to. It will take time and I can tell, by the tone of your message, that you are feeling pressured
and hampered by the situation you have been given. But we know that emerging/early readers need
lots of talk and lots of "reading to" before we can move them on to writing. I just lately read Ted
Kooser's, our National Poet Laureate's, comment when offering advice to aspiring writers. He said,
"Before you write one poem, you need to read at least 100." I am assuming that your little select
group has probably not had a literacy rich early life. You may be the first teacher to help them love
literature, to read aloud to them, to believe in them....eventually you can go from a picture book read
aloud to sharing something it makes you think of to modeling a bit of writing for them, to listening to
them tell you what it makes them think of, to their attempts to write that story down.
And if I have oversimplified your situation and offered suggestions that are senseless to your larger
context, please forgive me. The danger of email is lurking here!

Hello to Ruby and Lenny.
From a Colts Fan in Indiana
Carol

Wendy

That certainly makes a lot of sense, Carol. I would like to see these kids have some fun and what you 
describe sounds like it would be just that! Later their writing will reap the benefits of hearing the sounds 
of language. Mem Fox would certainly agree with you!

Wendy

Kathy

I agree with Carol too.  As a first grade teacher who has looped kids from Kinder before and taught 
full day kindergarten- I think I understand the challenge.  First, you do have to find a way for them 
to 'bond' with youand any kind of literacy- especially fun and engaging text is a good way to start.  

I wonder, though, as educators, we often throw out the phrase:  "We all know that ______ is not 
good for kids or______ is the best way to teach."

Do we have any research to back our claims?  For example, I saw an article about a month ago that 
talked about a good way to include rather than pull out English Language Learners, but, is it hard 
enough data to make a case?

Seems common sense to me that those kids would benefit from an inclusive writing model in their 
class, but without hard or even somewhat conclusive data, we are at the “mercy” of whatever our 
administrators think is a “good idea”'.

Peace,

Kathy, Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA 

Jan

Kathy

There is a lot of data around this issue. I suggest the first place you look is a search for Stephen 

Krashen's work.

Jan

Nancy

I am totally against pullouts. Not because of any particular research, but because of the insult I felt
when students were pulled out of my class in the past. Did these pullout teachers really know my
students better than I did? Did they know more about reading and writing than I did? Did they feel
what they were teaching during those minutes of pullout was more important than the learning going
on in my classroom at that time? I also was offended by what it did to offset the community building
in my classroom and what it did to the self worth of those students who felt dumb because they
needed special instruction. (I have tried to offset those negative feelings by calling what I do "The
Reading Club" and my closet room "The Clubhouse." I find that not only do my students eagerly want
to come with me, but other students in the classroom wish they could come too).

However as you state above, I am at the beck and call of my administration and because I am more
educationally radical than most, I carefully pick and choose my arguments. I also got some good
advice during my distress over this matter from a good teacher friend. She said, "Nancy, just assume
that these children are all members of your class and that you are pulling them in small groups to a
back table for some individualized instruction." That has really helped me keep my sanity during this
stressful time. Our school board recently passed all day kindergarten, so next year should bring better
times for this teacher. : )

Nancy

Debbie

Nancy,

These ladies have eloquently stated the problems you face in dealing with your group of students.
Carol and Lynne have given excellent advice on meeting the "first needs" of your boys, and Lynne has
good suggestions for labeling their work. I would like to add one suggestion for writing. Show them
through modeling how to use speech bubbles in their drawing/plan (whatever you call it). When they
first start to make the sound to symbol connection on their own, let it be in the speech bubbles. That
way they can tell you the story orally, and you can take dictation so that the story can be published.
Their job will be to add the word or two into the speech bubble. This is far less daunting than having
to tackle an entire sentence. Hope this suggestion helps as you work with the little guys.

Debbie

Jan

Nancy
 

Debbie's comment has prompted another strategy that a teacher I worked with some time back used 
to do with a similar group of children. The children were also from a non-English speaking background 
so the focus was also very much on learning the language, the grammar and the meanings of words.

The teacher, Steve, used to have 6 children come to him at a time, mostly 5-6 year olds. When the 
children arrived they always saw a 'Mystery Message' on the flipchart. Steve had goldfish in the room 
and the message usually related to the goldfish 'talking' to the children. The message was always 
simple and usually included a child's name.

The first task was to work out what the message said, so they began with Steve helping them to work 
out the message. For instance, the message might be as simple as 'Ishmael is six today. What present 
did he get?' Once worked out the children would work out a response (especially Ishmael) and then 
help Steve 'write' back to the fish. Steve of course had alphabet charts, all sorts of pencils and paper, 
cards with high frequency words and so on. Steve constantly helped the children understand the 
reading/writing connections as we explain in Chapter 2 of our book.

Good luck Nancy. I am sure you will make a difference with these children.

Jan

Darcy

Dear All, 

Writing is hard work no matter how old you are! I just saw a preschool teacher draw her "story" on 
a piece of chart paper while she told it. The students were transfixed because the story was an 
authentic one, the teacher used recurring characters (herself and her husband). I know that talking 
and drawing effectively on chart paper in front of a group of kids is not easy and takes practice. The 
story the teacher told the kids and drew was how her husband had surprised her for her birthday. At 
the end of the story, she also wrote one summary sentence of the story underneath: “Mr. Nye 
brought me a Birthday Cake.”. But then the teacher asked who'd like to re-tell the story to the group. 
One child came up, and using the drawing, told the story, with a beginning, middle and end. I know 
this is a daily practice in the classroom, and the kids also write "independently". When I think of the 
mix of intention, fun, learning in this kind of teaching, I am amazed. 

Something I have lived by after some disastrous novice teaching (okay, severe approximations) early 
on in my career, is never give an assignment to students that you won't try or do yourself, and always 
take your own tests!

Darcy

Sarah

Dear All,
 

I am enjoying this conversation and the many threads. Overlapping aspects I think about when I 
reflect on my practice with my fifth graders is choice and audience. I wrote often with my students and 
their former classroom teachers did the same, so my students were familiar with this and expecting 
this kind of workshop. I was surprised one day when kids said they didn't feel like they had choices in 
writing. The next day I brainstormed a list of things I might write about to demonstrate some ways to 
generate options and had the kids tell me what they would most like to read about. Needless to say 
what I wanted was not my feelings about the upcoming Superbowl game, but this is what they 
selected by a large majority vote! I wrote the piece on my own, and posted the process in the hall for 
them to read. The kids were so into it, I was really amazed. We labeled different parts and 
deconstructed what I had done over a series of short mini-lessons. They referred to things I tried, such
 as crossed out sections, inaccuracies (I am not a football devotee), and asked me question after 
question. This generated a lot of excitement about audience and as we were preparing for the STATE 
TEST, it was useful for the conventional aspects and conversation about who is reading it and why!

A few weeks after the STATE TEST, I watched a small group of students exchange their lists and 
literally go through the exact same process for selecting the topic. (This reminded me of the small 
group revising time referred to earlier and hearing yourself as a teacher!) It is something that has 
stuck with me because although there was excitement, buzz or what have you, the purpose for the 
writing wasn't really meaningful. The topics were theirs, the forms, etc. but the audience or 
authenticity of the actual writing wasn't really any different than a teacher telling them what to write. 
My question is how to unpack what authentic writing really is and create spaces for that in 
classrooms?

Cheers,

Sarah Vander Zanden 

Wendy

Hi Sarah,

Your statement:

“I wrote often with my students and their former classroom teachers did the same, so my students 
were familiar with this and expecting this kind of workshop”.

...is an important one. In our book we speak about developing whole school approaches to writing. 
Not that we all do the same thing but that we come from the same understandings. The 
understandings or beliefs we have about writing are the same as those about reading. That is, the 
learning about literacy in general-reading, writing, spelling, listening and talking. Because of this we 
often found ourselves [when writing our book] adding pieces about reading, spelling etc.

The remainder of your posting is also interesting. It seems to me reading what you have said that 
you have a great relationship with your students. They were able to talk to you about how they 
perceived the learning was happening (or not) in the classroom. While you “tweaked” your approach 
you still maintained the teaching and learning you thought was important, i.e. unpacking the writing
and making explicit aspects of the process you included in your writing. The students went on to 
make choices and apply this learning. It sounds authentic to me...what do others think?

Wendy

Christine

Jan, Wendy and all,

Thank you for your professional, experiential and heart-felt responses. Wouldn't it be wonderful if all
professional conversations were at this level?

Most appreciatively,

Christine

Cheryl

Jan, Wendy, and all contributors to this conversation,

Thank you all for a wonderful conversation. The ideas and comments expressed in this dialogue have
been extremely helpful to so many educators. Thank all of you for your concern regarding the
education of our children!

Cheryl

PS. Darcy, thank you for all your hard work in setting up conversations with authors to help us
improve our instruction for children.

Denise

Thank you to all.

I appreciate the response to my question. It seems that regardless of where we live or who we teach,
we struggle with similar issues in teaching writing. Hmmmm. That in and of itself is something to
think about isn't it?

Denise

CLOSING REMARKS

Darcy

Dear Colleagues,   

It’s a dark and foggy night here in the Northwest! No doubt Jan and Wendy are spending some time
celebrating Australia Day (much like our July 4^th) so we appreciate them even more for spending some
national holiday time conversing with us. Thanks, Jan and Wendy, for answering questions and sharing
your thinking with us. We’ll look forward to any other nuggets of information you want to offer before
we move along to other topics.  

And to the rest of you, thanks for your questions, comments, and suggestions. As usual, we will be
putting together an edited transcript for you to access and download to re-read and perhaps share
with others who didn’t get to join us. We will also be providing a study discussion guide to accompany
Jan and Wendy’s newest book Writing Instruction K-6: Understanding Process, Purpose, Audience.
The guide is designed for use in Teachers as Readers groups or university groups using the book and
for anyone else who likes this kind of support while reading.  I will let you know when the transcript
and the study guide are available.  

We’re working on a topic and author(s) for the next conversations. Please let us know what ideas you
might have for Conversations with the Authors or other ideas. In the meantime, keep your comments,
questions to explore, and suggestions coming on the listserve. We appreciate you.  

Everyone have a great weekend, and keep thinking, find something to improve every day, and if you
aren’t currently doing any writing demonstrations, no matter the age and grade level, give them a try!
See you soon…. 

Cordially,

Darcy H. Bradley, Ph.D.
Acquisitions Editor for Education Materials
Richard C. Owen Publishers, Inc.  

Jan

Dear all,
 

I am finally catching up with all the postings. As Darcy pointed out yesterday was Australia Day and it 
is a 4 day weekend. A friend came to stay with me and we went to buy dog meat for my spoodle and 
came home with a 6 week old spoodle. My friend has wanted one for sometime and when she saw this 
little golden one she was hooked. My 3 yr old spoodle is frightened of the pup and keeps on insisting 
on being on my lap. What time-wasters puppies are!!

Thanks, Darcy, for setting up the listserve conversation. I have enjoyed the conversations and wished 
I had been able to respond to each question. It is so pleasing to see so many teachers searching for 
ways of improving the way they teach writing. I think one of the reasons why I have become so 
interested in this area of teaching literacy is that it is such a challenge! I really loathed teaching writing 
(composition we called it way back then) to my second graders. I realize now, it was because I did not 
have a sound understanding of what it meant to be a writer, nor did I have an understanding of how 
reading and writing are connected and in turn are both language acts. I didn’t really begin to 
understand this until I began to work with teachers and was asked to provide staff development for 
them. Together we began to learn not only better ways to teach writing but why we should teach 
writing to children. Observing children write, asking them questions and listening to their responses 
taught us so much and of course questioning and sharing with each other was vital to my learning and 
theirs.

Best wishes with your teaching and keep asking questions!!

Jan

Wendy

Dear All,

Thanks for you closing comments, Darcy. Australia Day is a big celebration here and a public holiday
of course. This year I really didn’t enter into the celebrations as it was also my sister’s birthday so we
had some of our own celebrations which were very nice.

I have enjoyed the conversation over the last few days-in some ways it seems too soon to end it as
these things seem to take a bit of time to really get started.
Much of our conversation seemed to be about the practical aspects of teaching writing. When we are
in the classroom (wherever we are) our attention is always drawn to the day to day challenges we
face and these questions are important. When I look back at the postings the questions on a deeper
level were really about meeting the needs of particular students. When we begin to think about that,
we need to think about the deeper theoretical underpinnings that inform the decisions we make in
our classrooms.

As a staff developer I know that the teachers I work with really like the practical aspects of our time
together but both Jan and I always have a strong theoretical component in our work with teachers.
We know that good ideas ”run out” and as teachers we have to know why we do what we do as
teachers so we can make good choices. That was what attracted me to Mrs. A’s classroom (chapter 6).
I could ask about any chart, book, strategy in that classroom and each was specifically chosen to be
there and she could articulate the choice she had made. Every choice which was made, was a piece of
Mrs. A’s big plan for teaching writing. The students’ writing is evidence that what she was doing was
working. What’s more she has moved on to bigger and greater things if you like. Her assessment is
very reflective and as much as it is about reporting on student progress, it is about her reflecting on
her own teaching of writing (chapter 9 in our book touches on this).

There will always be products, books, programs, ideas etc to buy and we have to have a clear
understanding of the theory underpinning our practice so we can choose what is best. Someone
commented on the strong links between reading and writing and of course our teaching of both of
these things comes from the same theoretical base so the learning can be seamless for the students.
We have to able to look at these things and various strategies and ask ourselves... “if I choose to use
this [approach, strategy etc] how will it impact on the writing of my students? What is the implicit
message it will give my students?”

All of what we talk about in our book is based on a belief that our students can be writers for
audience and purpose. We believe that and therefore have our students engaging in authentic writing
experiences.

We tried to have a balance in the book from theory to practice and we do hope this is helpful to all
teachers-those beginning and those who are veterans. Many years ago Jan did her Ph.D. around a
model of teacher learning which had a tremendous impact of my understandings about teacher
learning. More recently I did research into school culture drawing on the earlier work Jan had done.
These things really matter and we tried to bring those learnings to the book too although they
probably did not come through in this short conversation....perhaps if we had more time.

It was most enjoyable working with you all and as always when I am in conversation with teachers
anywhere-a learning experience for me too.

My best wishes to you all in your writing classrooms. Good luck with your further reading and
thinking around writing.

Wendy

Richard

Good morning everyone,

My thanks to Jan and Wendy for their thoughtful and stimulating responses to the great questions and
comments from all of you, and my thanks to Darcy for her hard work in organizing this discussion.  I
hope you all are as pleased as I am. 

These opportunities to interact directly with authors come too seldom.  How nice if we could have the
authors with us at all times.  Face-to-face is best.  An online discussion is a pretty good second.  So
please treasure these times, especially when the authors are halfway around the world.

In third place, but with its own distinct advantages, is to have your own copy of Writing Instruction K-
6.  It is available right here.  http://www.rcowen.com/ProfBks.htm#Jan%20Turbill  I urge you to visit
the website and get a copy sent to you.  It is an investment that will return benefits many times over. 

You also might want to consider earning online credit for reading the book through ArmchairEd
(http://www.armchaired.com/).  Click on Courses; click on Writing.  And, as Darcy mentioned, the
transcript for this discussion will be available at our website in the coming week.  You will be able to
click on it from the front page (http://www.rcowen.com). 

Darcy has been working on other ideas about ways to make the most of Jan and Wendy's book.  She
will be writing to you soon to share her thinking. 

More discussions are being planned so stay with us. 

I wish you all good health and good teaching.

Richard Owen
Richard C. Owen Publishers, Inc.