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An Online Discussion About When: Sunday,
January 21 -
Thursday, January 25, 2007 The postings listed below are not in the order in which they
were |
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Online discussion about Writing and Writing Instruction with Jan Turbill and Wendy Bean Jan 21 - January 25, 2007 Transcript © 2006 by Richard C. Owen Publishers, Inc. All rights reserved. Permission is granted to print, copy, or transmit this transcript for personal use only, provided this entire copyright statement is included. This transcript, in part or in whole, may not otherwise be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electrical or mechanical, including inclusion in a book or article, recording, or by any information storage and retrieval system, without permission in writing from the publisher. |
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Darcy Bradley Dear Colleagues and Friends,
Welcome to our 3rd
Conversation with the Authors! This month’s topic is WRITING
AND
WRITING
Allow me to
introduce Jan Turbill and Wendy Bean, our friends in literacy learning
from Australia.
Wendy is a well
known educator, speaker, and consultant in the area of literacy
instruction. She has
Jan and Wendy’s
most recent book is Writing Instruction K-6: Understanding Process,
Purpose,
We’ve already
received several meaty questions, and we will try to get all of them
answered. As before,
OK! Here is the
first question for you, Jan and Wendy! We also understand that you do
not live in the
You’ve both had
many years of experiences working with student and teacher writers, and
I remind our
participants that you can visit this landing page, if you wish to read
more about the book,
I also remind our
readers that after this discussion, which ends on Thursday, January 25
(US), we will
And as a bonus,
there will soon be a STUDY GUIDE available for the book soon. I will let
you know when
Looking forward
to thinking more deeply about writing, writers, and writing instruction
with all of you Cordially,
Darcy H. Bradley,
Ph.D.
360-592-3001 PST
or (msg) 800-262-0787 (9-5 EST) |
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Wendy Bean
Hello, If
you have our book you will see some extraordinary writing from children
featured in Chapter 6—it is
Wendy |
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Jan Turbill
Hello,
Thanks Darcy. I have been mulling over your introductory question as I watched Australia beat New
Zealand in cricket. I know many of my audience would not be interested in cricket (most likely my
friend Wendy isn't either) or even know what it is. I love it! And Australia hasn't been beaten all
summer - most importantly we beat England!!
So to the question. I have to say that for much of my own schooling and my early teaching I had few
positive experiences with writing. I perceived myself to be a poor writer (and this included handwriting
I often thought if I could be a better handwriter I would be a better writer) at school and then as a
teacher of young children. At school I marveled at my friends who seemed to be able to produce these
great poems and stories when I was still trying to find something to write about.
As a young teacher I hated teaching writing as much as my second graders hated doing it. What
changed? My mentor Bob Walshe (I dedicated my part of the book Wendy and I wrote to Bob) helped
me understand that first you have to have a reason, a purpose to write, you have to have something
to say and you have to have an audience in mind for the writing.
Second, he helped me understand that when you have something to say then get it down because you
can't do anything with the writing until the meaning is down in the words and sentences and that one
shouldn't worry too much about this - just get the thoughts on the paper. Donald Murray said writing
finds its own meaning and your writing often takes you in directions that you didn't initially intend. I
think this was hard for me to learn and accept. I needed confidence in my writing before I fully 'let go'
and wrote.
Third, Bob helped me understand the meaning of a draft and of the importance of revision. Revising
the writing is the hardest thing to do. It is often frustrating and anxiety producing but I have come to
learn that the results are well worth the “agony”. Playing with the sentences, the words, moving them
around on the screen is like weaving a wonderful pattern. I have to say at this point that I now
compose on screen - the computer has been a wonderful tool for me as a writer.
When I began to understand what it truly meant to be “a writer” and then began to perceive myself as
a writer, I lost all my previous fears of writing. I then became a teacher of writing, a good teacher - I
can explain to children writing and how it works because I have “lived” the process, the struggles, the
joys. I can explain to them how I now “read like a writer” to quote Frank Smith. I will stop when I am
reading something and reread the sentence, even jot it down in my journal because I like the way the
author has written something.
In our book Wendy and I share many of these beliefs and how these are then enacted in the teaching
of writing. I am a firm believer that to be an effective teacher of writing one must at least “have a go”
at writing - experience the writing that you ask the children to write.
That's about it for now - it is bedtime here on a very hot evening - it is 10:45pm and still about 85F
outside. It is going to be another hot one tomorrow. I look forward to some responses when I wake!!
Jan |
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Darcy
Dear Jan, Wendy,
and Listserve Colleagues,
Jan and Wendy,
thanks for your thoughtful responses! And I suspect that most of our
Canadian and US
I know that there
are participants who will want to ask their own questions and perhaps
post responses Thanks for the opportunity to post a question or two.
I
teach third grade. I am currently using Lucy Calkins Units of Study
Grades 3-5. The
I am
finding it difficult to sustain any real effort from a rather large
number of
I am a
veteran teacher and my instincts tell me to switch gears, but I really
value
Our
best stories this year have been fiction for fun stories like the "Great
________
Just a reminder,
that participants are welcome to send their questions and comments
directly to the As always, and from the rainy and cold (today) coastal area of Washington State, Darcy |
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Wendy
Denise,
Once that is worked out I can help the student(s) review the structure
of the text type/genre or help |
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JAN
Denise
I must begin this response by stating that I love Lucy Calkin's work. Her research into early writing
was very influential in my career, particularly Lessons From a Child (1983), Living Between the Lines
(with Shelley Harwayne, 1990), and The Art of Teaching Writing (1986,1994). I say this because now I
have to disagree with calling this workshop writing narratives. I would call it personal recount. A
narrative is fiction - its purpose is to entertain and inform through the building of a story - one that has
an orientation, complication and resolution and sometimes an end piece of a coda. A narrative is 'made
up'. It may be based on personal experience but then it moves beyond the “truth”. That is its purpose.
The workshop you describe here is one that requires the students to 'recount' an experience. It is not
fiction but real. The purpose of writing a personal recount is to share something that really happened
and in this case something 'special', 'memorable'. I think for the age you are working with this is rather
a difficult task as they are at an age when they don't necessarily think their personal experiences are
worth telling. Another issue may be that they feel “shy”, “embarrassed” about sharing really personal
things with their peers and teacher. It is not “cool” (is that a word your children use?) As Wendy points
out it is also important to have the students think about why they are doing the activity. If the purpose
of the using personal experiences was to then turn it into fiction this might change the students'
engagement.
Let me share an example. I was working with 5th Grade children and the teacher wanted them to
“practice” writing description. I decided to use The Twits by Roald Dahl as an example. I read the
description of Mr. Twit and we discussed how the choice of words made him sound so ugly. I then
shared a “'personal experience” of a memory I had of an uncle of mine. I loved this uncle dearly but he
always looked like a scruffbag. I then asked the children if they could think of someone they knew - a
shopkeeper, a gardener - who they thought looked “scruffy” or “ugly”. They then had to describe this
person (one boy described his dog!). I then asked them to share the first draft with a friend. They loved
doing this and I could see how we could have then used this “person” as a character in a narrative.
I think your instincts were right - but maybe too if you discussed the purpose of the workshop and the
writing more explicitly this might also help. As Wendy says always get the students talking about the
purpose of the writing and who would be the audience. This begs another question - how do we
find authentic audiences? Must we? Or is it sufficient to state that the purpose is to practice
a description and the audience will be each other?
Good night all.
Jan |
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Cheryl Good Evening from Colorado, I have just the
opposite problem in my kindergarten classroom. All but one of my
students only wants Thank you, |
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Wendy
Hi Cheryl from Colorado,
Great to hear that you are creating some wonderful shared writing with the class. These “books” will no
doubt be popular with the students and will become popular reading material with the children. I think
it's great making these books and building up wonderful resources in the classroom.
I guess you are doing lots of modeling as well-short focused modeled writing sessions (with teacher
talk) are very powerful at all ages.
What I have seen done is a shared writing session, writing the orientation for the fairy tale and then in
small groups the children write a simple complication or a character description. They share those and
you select one to continue the shared writing...or....construct the fairy tale as shared writing almost to
the end and get the children to write the resolution in groups or individually. They love this and the talk
within the groups is as valuable as the writing.
Let's see what Jan and others think.
Wendy
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Kathy
Dear Cheryl.
How much modeling of writing a story do you do?
Peace,
Kathy, Colorado Springs |
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Wendy
Hi Cheryl,
You have probably been reading the responses regarding modeling-some good ideas from Jan and
Lorraine. I agree with all they have said about this important strategy. So you can model writing story
and recount and any other type of writing. I recommend teachers do a short, focused lesson everyday.
Wendy
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Cheryl
We begin writing on the first day of school. We begin our writing following our morning exercises, i.e.:
calendar, alphabet wall, letters of our names. I model writing daily, and as I expect children to write to
a certain style, I model that style for at least two weeks prior to my expectations. I also ensure that my
students know they will be writing for this purpose. I pulled a small group yesterday during writing,
and as we wrote, we discussed how to incorporate a fictitious style into a personal narrative. (I hope
this makes sense). This worked quite well.
As for my student who only writes in a fictitious manner, I worked individually with him, and got him
to write his first personal narrative. It is exciting to see the growth of my students this year in writing.
However, this brings up a new question. I posed this question to our literacy/writing coach and she
suggested I post it here. My situation is that once I get my students writing a story with a beginning,
middle and end, they become stagnant and do not write more. I know that they are capable of
adding details, but should I concentrate on having them add those details, or should I be
more concerned at making sure that they are using mechanics correctly first?
Thank you all for your comments.
Cheryl |
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Freida
Cheryl,
I have a fairy tale reading/ writing unit I use with K and 1. I am a university person so I only have
them for teaching lessons. I read books like Bad Boys, M Palatini, True Story of The 3 Little Pigs, J
Scieszka, Mr. Wolf's Pancakes, J Fearley, you get the idea. Then we talk about other fairy tales we
know, choose one and write a story together from the point of view of the "other" characters in the
fairy tales. Then the interns continue the discussions with the children about fairy tales and the
children pair write stories from different character points of view eventually getting to writing a fairy
tale of their own. In these grades it takes time, often the whole semester, and many days of model,
talk, draw, take dictation, but the end product is a great story that students proudly read from the
author's chair.
We write what we read, what we talk about, and what we hear, keep reading and talking about fairy
tales and they will write about them.
Freida Golden
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Wendy
Thanks Freida
-More good ideas! We also stress that reading/writing connections and wrote an entire chapter on it in
our book because of the critical role it plays. Thanks for adding that to the conversation.
Wendy
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Cheryl
Freida,
Thank you. The growth of the majority of my students this year has exceeded any in the past, and I
needed the reminder that repetition is vital. I am also going to implement your idea of the "pair write".
This may be the needed step.
Cheryl |
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Wendy
Cheryl,
It sounds like you scaffold the writing in your class very well-a great example of moving from teacher
teaching to independence for the writer. I think this is something that sometimes does not happen in
classrooms. The leap from teacher modeling or shared writing to independent writing is too quick for
some young writers. Your posting reminds me of how important it is to individualize our teaching.
Your question is also a good one and Freida gave some good ideas in her posting. Another thing I have
seen work is Writer's or Author's Circle (Jan calls it Helping Circle which I now prefer too) which we
make mention of when we wrote about the Basics of Writing. It requires good modeling of responding
to writing, that is, good questions. (If you use this and listen to the kids it will give you an idea what
you sound like to the children).
Basically in groups of 3 each child reads their writing and the others ask questions. The small group
acts like the first audience for the piece. With the young children you teach I would do lots of short
whole class or small group modeling to give them an idea of the process and the benefits. Because the
writer is reading aloud the focus will not be on the surface features of the writing but on the meaning
which is what we are after.
Good luck-it sounds like your writing classroom is a terrific place to be.
Wendy
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Cheryl
Wendy,
Thank you for the idea of the Helping Circle. We already have a time set aside each day for author's
chair, but I had not considered having them break into small groups for suggestions. I believe that this
will help my students' writing become more valuable and focused on detail. I also believe that this will
enable my students to utilize the skills we have worked so hard to develop in cooperative groups.
Cheryl
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Jan
Dear all
This is an interesting thread of discussion for me. It demonstrates the difference in terminology used in
the Australia and US. Not that it matters as long we each know what we are talking about. I would call
what Cheryl refers to as 'personal' narratives, “personal recount”. A recount for me is what it says - we
re-count or re-tell our personal stories. A recount is factual or at least based in the reality of 'what I
did'. It is mostly written in the past tense as we share with others something we did or experienced.
They can be written in the first person (autobiographies) also in the third person (newspaper reports or
news happenings). A narrative is fictional often based in the reality of the author but it always has
characters who are introduced to us in the orientation or beginning. Some problem or 'complication'
occurs which then needs to be solved - a resolution. Fairy tales are classic narratives.
So Cheryl what you call a personal narrative I would call a personal recount. Now that we have shared
meanings around terminology let me return to your comment about your Kindergarten children. It is
highly likely that this age group will want to write about themselves and what has happened to them. That is
part of the developmental stage they are in. It doesn’t mean they cannot write a fictional narrative but
it is harder for them. Freida's suggested strategies are powerful ones to scaffold the Kindergarten
children's writing of genres other than the personal narrative (recount).
I saw in a Kindergarten where the teacher used cut out characters of the fairy tales and created probe
questions. Children could choose one of the cut out characters and “tell” what happened. Questions
might be:
Where was your character? What happened to your character? What did she/he do? How did your
character fix the problem?
I remember one little girl had chosen Cinderella and her narrative went something like this.
Cinderella was in the forest. She saw the bear’s house.
They scared Cinderella and she never went there again.
Some ideas to think upon.
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Freida Jan, |
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Wendy
Hi,
I read 'bed to bed' stories from to time to time but have never heard them called that-very cute! A
nice idea for children to write about themselves for a purpose is, at the beginning of the year, to take
a photograph of every child and have them write about themselves to put in a book for the teacher.
The teacher says...write
about yourself...write what you would like me to know about you in order for us to start the year. I
have also seen this done when a new child joins the class mid year; each child writes to introduce
themselves so the new person can take the book home the first night and read about all of his/her new
classmates.
It is wonderful to see what they write. We would call this descriptive writing.
Wendy
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Freida
Wendy,
What a great idea and in our assessment driven world that would be such an effective assessment if it
were done at the beginning and at the end of the year.
Freida
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Christine
Dear Jan, Wendy, et. al.,
It is truly interesting how the teaching of writing has changed during my lifetime. As a first grader, I
could not write until I knew how to read. If we wrote anything, it was copied and that was for the
purpose of learning handwriting. Now children are encouraged to write before they read and most
children have a much richer immersion in language as infants.
I have recently been working with fourth graders on revision. It seems so difficult for them to
accomplish their revisions independently. If they read it out loud to an adult, they often see their
errors, but don't find them in peer conferences or on their own. What techniques have you found
to be successful for students in the revision process? Do you think students should revise
on screen? We have them do revisions on paper then have them do the changes on screen.
Most do not compose on screen. Also, what are your thoughts on the impact of computers
on student writing?
From the frigid and snowy Chicago area where the Bears (National
Football Conference) won today.
Christine Seidman
Literacy Facilitator
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Wendy
Hi Christine,
Nice to read a comment from Chicago. I visited your city last year for the IRA conference and just
loved it. I only had one day to “play”' and plan to spend some more time there. The architecture is
fantastic.
Interesting reading your comments-yes things have certainly changed as you point out. Our schools
are about to return and I love spending some time with those gorgeous little kids starting school and
observing their writing. The range is always fascinating depending on their experiences prior to
beginning school.
Revision can be difficult-I was struggling with just that yesterday with a research paper I was writing.
I was reminded how hard it is when all you want is to be finished! I guess the children feel like that too
especially if there is no real purpose (in their mind) for the writing...I struggled on and made the effort
because I needed to present the paper to a company I am doing some work for!
So if it is so hard how do we inspire our students to engage in revision? If I think about my experience
yesterday I was spurred on by my audience. As a reread and revised I was trying to read it with “their”
eyes. Students can do that too. There is a piece of writing in our book called Duckmaloi Park (p.73).
Olivia was in Year 4 and wrote a persuasive piece of writing as she wanted others to know about a
wonderful place she had gone for a weekend. The teacher suggested she send it to the owner of
Duckmaloi Park. Luckily, she got a response and the owner said she wanted to use the first paragraph
in her new brochure! While this was a thrill for Olivia it was an important moment for the rest of the
class too-the response gave them all a sense of audience. Of course as writers we are not always so
lucky and our students will learn that too. What started to emerge though was that the students
started to take more notice of each other’s writing...that is peer conferencing became more “'serious”.
They started to see that they were the first audience for the writing happening in that class.
I will think more about your questions around technology...what do you think
Jan?
Wendy
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Lorraine
Hello Jan, Wendy, and Christine,
I am enjoying the conversations re children learning to write and thought I might share my thinking on
the power of teacher demonstrations on children's capacity to revise their writing. In each writing
lesson I demonstrate some authentic writing, large on a chart with children observing. I work on the
one piece of writing over several or many lessons depending on the purpose and audience and text
type.
Sometimes during the drafting process and certainly when the draft is complete I take time re-reading
aloud the draft and focus on, a line of a poem, or a sentence from narrative, or the general statement
of introduction of a report, and verbalize my thinking
E.g. Ugh! That word has too many syllables. It interrupts the flow of the poem.
This line needs re-writing.
This sentence has unnecessary words. I need to tighten the language.
I don't think this information is needed. I'll get rid of it.
Where a sentence needs re-writing I orally try out some alternate sentences. Perhaps just re-arranging
the existing words. Then I ask if any of the students have a better way of re- writing the sentence.
Orally several students have a go. With the original text large and visible to all students they are able
to compare the oral re-drafts with the original. They learn about the flexibility of language.
Plus, sometimes I use the students as demonstrators, revising their own writing. (This is only done
where the student is willing to revise in front of the whole group). Always this is done, with a reminder
to all that we are members of a writing community - that we support one another. I will have written a
small section of the child's piece large on a chart or the student will have done this. The text is read
aloud and a problem identified:
E.g. repetition …..and then..... and then..... and then....
Empty vacuous words...went … went…. Went… said
Lots of unnecessary information.
The child has time to silently re-read the small section of text which is displayed, and then orally re-
drafts it, with all listening. I find the oral re-drafts from the writer are just so superior to the written
draft. Other students are then given a turn to offer alternate re-drafting or revisions to the writer. The
children really enjoy this process. It is left to the writer to determine which changes if any, he/she will
make.
Jan and Wendy I wish you both all the best with your book.
From sunny Melbourne.
Lorraine
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Christine
Lorraine, Jan and Wendy,
Thank you for the suggestions. Modeling is key to the writing process and your example is a way that
the whole class can participate. I think that we haven't done enough modeling with verbalized thinking.
Both must be present.
Thank you all. This process is most informative. Thank you Jan and Wendy for providing this arena
with your realistic input. I was at your session at IRA, Chicago and have been touting your book ever
since.
Christine
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Wendy
Thanks Christine
-I am happy you like the book-very dedicated of you to be at the last session of the
conference!! I agree with you again. Modeled writing is the key. It is such a powerful strategy for any
age group. Lorraine's example great to read- a few reminders there about the need to be focused and
how the teacher must think about the language he/she uses. Thanks for adding that to the
conversation, Lorraine, as I was reading it I felt like I was almost watching you doing a lesson!
Wendy
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Jeri
Jeri Trujillo |
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Wendy Hi
Jeri, |
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JERI
Wendy – You have
opened my eyes. Jeri |
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Lenny
Jan & Wendy (& fellow listserve participants),
Thank you so much for taking time to share your thoughts and questions on the listserve! I just
recently read your book and really appreciate the focus of your third chapter. It is so helpful to be
reminded of the changes that have taken place in writing instruction during the past few decades. As
an instructor of undergraduates, I really believe it is important for pre-service teachers, as well as for
all of us, to know how past research and trends have influenced current theory and practice. One
addition I wondered about for your section called 'writing as a social process' in the third
chapter is the crit |