Richard Owen 

Good evening everyone and welcome to our TLN Author Discussion with Jan Turbill and Wendy Bean.  For those of you who do not know Jan and Wendy, they are Australian educators with a keen focus on teaching writing to young people.  They are active teachers and researchers and they provide professional development experiences in Australian schools.  Among their many publications is Writing Instruction K-6: Understanding Process, Purpose, Audience, which is published by Richard C. Owen Publishers. 

We have just a quick two days with Jan and Wendy.  In this conversation we are particularly interested in offering school faculties and teacher education students opportunity to communicate directly with the authors, posing questions and comments regarding content in their book.  But as with all of our conversations, the authors are eager and willing to engage in any discussion that is on the topic of writing instruction.  Keep in mind that Jan and Wendy are in Australia, where the time is 15 hours ahead of US Eastern Standard Time.

To start this conversation let's consider the following statement from Writing Instruction:

As teachers, we need to make what we know about writing much more explicit
to the students we teach. Without a strong grasp of the role of audience and
purpose, we can only teach students the mechanics of writing (page  41).

Jan and Wendy, will you elaborate for us?  Where does our understanding of audience and purpose come from?  How do we develop the insights and skills that will help all teachers become more effective in teaching students to be more skillful as writers? 

Please welcome Jan Turbill and Wendy Bean to TLN.

Richard Owen

Jan Turbill 

Hi everyone,

It is 9.18 am here in Australia. It is warm and humid with more rain expected. I realise you are all just getting over Thanksgiving. I have spent a few Thanksgivings in the US and really enjoyed myself.  It is a time that also seems to signal that winter is on the way. We do not have such a celebration here and of course summer is looming for us.

We chose this quote from our book because we believe that often the notion of audience and purpose in writing is largely implicit in our teaching and knowledge about the process writing. Let me begin by sharing a short story about my now 15 year old nephew Sam. When Sam was 6 he brought home at the end of the school year (December for us)  his 'portfolio' of his best work. This portfolio's purpose was to inform his parents the progress Sam had made through the year. There was a piece of writing he had done called, ‘How I Clean My Teeth.’  It was neatly handwritten with most spelling correct and clearly outlined the procedures for cleaning one's teeth. That was the teacher's purpose - the children are required to learn to write a procedural text.

When we got to this page, I commented to Sam that it was a good piece of writing. His response was, 'It's dumb!' Surprised by his response, I pointed out that the teacher wanted them to learn how to write procedural text and this was a good demonstration that he had  achieved that. 'But it is dumb', he added. 'Everyone knows how to clean their teeth.' 'I guess your teacher chose something that she knew you all knew and therefore could write the procedures for. So what else could you have done?' I asked. 'Well I could have talked about how to get to Simon's house or how to  play soccer. Not everyone knows that! People won’t want to read this (pointing to his text) cause they know how to do that!'

This short conversation clearly demonstrated to me that Sam had a more explicit understanding about the role of purpose and audience than his teacher! Teachers of writing need to understand and be able to articulate why we write and how that purpose is contingent upon the audience. The difficulty I know many teachers have is trying to find 'authentic audiences'. How do we get around that one?

Over to you

Jan

Shirley

Jan,

That was an excellent example of what I see teachers doing all the time with their students.  Students have a much better understanding of what is being asked of them than teachers really do take time to understand about the level of learning within their classroom audience.  I am seeing some awesome writing examples within lots of the classrooms that I am invited to observe.  I think we need to give our students more opportunities to reach for a challenge and to grow beyond where the teacher thinks those
students are at that specific time.   Yes, there are a few students within that classroom audience that will need more help but the majority of them are wanting a challenge and want to grow academically.
Thanks again.

Shirley

Joy 

Hi Jan, 

Authentic purposes for writing really help engage students in my fourth grade class. One popular authentic purpose I use in my class is writing our class newsletter. The students' parents are their audience. We start out with interviews, and gradually branch out to writing columns like a real paper. Students write about what's happening in our class, field trips we are planning, sports they participate in, etc. They may share a poem they've written, or one they really enjoy. They may write book, television, music, or movie reviews. 

The parents love this very much, and their positive feedback fuels the students' engagement in the process.  

Joy

Jan 

Joy

You would love chapter 6 in our book that is titled: Helping Writers Consider Audience, Purpose and Genre. Your example is a great example also of connecting writing to the community in which the children live. This connectedness in itself gives children a sense of 'why write' and why others write. I remember taking my 2nd grades to the local community newspaper offices and many had no idea how a paper was put together. I remember one boy being horrified that a photo of his favorite local soccer team player was chopped in order to fit the advertisement on the page!

I wonder how many other connections we can help our students see to their community. One little girl in the book's example is a brochure she wrote.

What else?

Jan

Elisa

For me this is the Home-School Journal I started this year with my grade 2's.  They write, once a week, to a family member who writes back.  I encourage them to read the previous week's reply before they start writing their letter for that week.  It's wonderful to read what the children are writing to their families and the responses they get back.

Elisa

Jan

Elisa

This sounds a great idea. You would have a terrific record of their progress. But let's get back to the role of audience and purpose. Do you ever discuss quite purposefully how the way they construct their letters might change according to the audience and purpose? For instance - writing to my Grand Aunt might read quite differently from a letter I have written to my cousin - even when it is on the same topic. I wonder what responses you would get if you asked your students to talk about this.

Jan

Elisa

Hi Jan,

Thank you for your comments.

No, I haven't discussed audience and purpose in terms of their letters but I am sure I would get some great responses.  What I have noticed is that some children include different incidental information depending on who they're writing to.  For example, I have a student whose mom goes on runs often during the week.  In one of his letters, he asked her how her run went that day.  I bet I could pull out other examples and, with the children's permission, I could ask them to talk to the class about why they included certain questions or comments in their letter that may seem merely "personal" but yet speak to audience, as well.  Some children write to older cousins or siblings and there would be a marked difference there.  I will try this when I get back to school tomorrow, hopefully.  I'm staying home today with my son who is sick.

Thanks for pointing this out to me,

Elisa

Elisa Waingort
Grade 2 Spanish Bilingual
Dalhousie Elementary
Calgary, Canada

Joy 

Jan, 

Another activity I do with my students is called Pencil Pals. I got the idea from Robert Redmond, moderator and owner of the Real Writing Teachers Yahoo Group. Pencil Pals is a structured activity where students "IM" each other. Well, not exactly, because they don't use computers. Each student has a clipboard with a piece of notebook paper, and a pencil. I go over the rules, set my timer for 2 minutes, and they write to their partner. The rules are that they must write their names to the side (like a play script). They must use correct punctuation, complete sentences, and complete words (no LOL or other computerese abbreviations.) Sometimes I suggest a topic, sometimes they do a free write, where they can write about whatever is on their minds. They also must be respectful of the other person. 

After 2 minutes, they switch clipboards and respond to what their partner has written. We go back and forth 5 or 6 times. I collect their papers, it is a great informal assessment. The kids rave about this and beg to be able to do it again and again. I like it because we can talk about the difference in audience and how our writing is different. 

Joy/NC/4

Elisa

This sounds like "written conversation".  I've done this with kids but have not thought of trying it out between kids.  Something to consider.

Thanks for sharing,

Elisa

Wendy Bean 

Another good idea Joy. Sounds a bit like the Written Conversations we used to do.  Of course all of these things and the wonderful writing we referred you to in Chapter 6, all depend on the good teaching of writing with a constant focus on audience and purpose. In chapter 7 we talk about what we think are key strategies to teach writing-modelled, shared, guided and independent. They are all important but teacher modelling is probably the single most important strategy in a writing classroom.

Short focused modelling where the teacher thinks aloud. We say this should no longer than ten minutes (stop before the students disengage) but take place every day from the first day of school to Grade 6. What do you think? We would love you to comment on our definitions of these strategies (page 86 onwards).

The teachers I work with often reveal to me that the first focus is reading and with interruptions etc during the school day, writing is often cut short.

Wendy

Richard 

Good morning in Australia,

Wendy, I think what you are referring to in the message above are a number of considerations that you identify regarding modeling writing in the classroom.  It strikes me as a very useful list for the teacher to keep in mind, and to focus attention on one or another of them during various modeling experiences. 

The stages in the writing process
Identifying audience and purpose
Defining the exact focus of the task
Deciding the subject and theme
Having the topic under control
Choosing the vocabulary
Constructing sentences
Clarifying ideas
Proofreading
Getting the spelling right
Using books as models
Model often
Using students as models

I am wondering about the consciousness of the teachers on the listserve who model regularly when it comes to such a list.  How specific is your planning?  Do you choose to focus on one or two main points in the course of writing for the group?  Is there something in this list that prompts you to think about how you might make shifts in focus in future modeling?  Is there something you consider important that does not seem to be represented? 

Richard

Wendy

Thanks for the question Richard. As you could tell from my response below I think this is a very important strategy in all grades. It is often underused (not done often enough) and often over used (goes too long and the students become disengaged).

All the things you mention can of course be modeled by the teacher in short focused sessions. The key is, through our ongoing assessment, to know what to model...sort of ‘in time’ teaching.

We talk about modeled writing in our book (pages 86-93) and provide a few examples of what we are suggesting. We say:

It is important to stress that Modeled Writing is a ‘think aloud’ demonstration of the writing process. Any genre can be modelled, including narratives, reports, expositions, short answers to a test, note taking, instructions and outlines. Any stage of the writing process can be modeled: focussing or planning, drafting, editing, re-writing, proofreading, layout or publishing. And any use for writing can be modelled: writing to communicate, writing to think and writing to learn. The role of audience and purpose can be explicitly demonstrated during modeled writing.

Joy

Richard,

I think sharing is a frequently overlooked concept. Students need to share their work with each other, their teachers, etc. for feedback. Authors certainly share their work before it is published. Sharing and giving feedback must also be modeled before we allow the children to have a go at it.

What do others think?

Joy/NC/4

Elisa

Joy

I agree with you, Joy.  I have been reading a book called, What's Next for this Beginning Writer, and they talk about oral rehearsal of stories in pairs.  We've been telling stories before writing workshop and I've been telling the kids that they could write down these stories during writing time.  I like the idea of "rehearsal", though.  Makes what they're doing so much more explicit.

Elisa 

Elisa Waingort
Grade 2 Spanish Bilingual
Dalhousie Elementary
Calgary, Canada

Lori

I always had a few first graders who would write out what they wanted to say on a whiteboard, then translate it to writing.  It was always interesting to see the revision process emerge naturally (if minimally) from these interactions.  Then I got an aide who considered it an enormous waste of time... I defended the process as rehearsal.                                  

Jan 

Lori

I think this a wonderful first step to having children understand the preparing for writing and revision process. I often begin my writing doing something similar on my whiteboard. It helps me to sit back and look at it before I get really stuck into it!

Jan

Wendy

I can confirm that Lori - when we wrote the book there were always 3 of us present - Jan, myself, and Jan's whiteboard!!!

Wendy

Jan

Joy

I couldn’t agree more. I think this is partly what I was talking about in an email. Sharing is talking and the opportunity to talk and question and respond to questions is a critical part of writing. I think another aspect of this is sharing with whom??? I like to share first thoughts with only a few trusted friends and colleagues. If I think I have to go public with people I don’t know very well, then I tend to make my writing 'safe' rather than what I really might be able to say given the chance to take that risk, write and then talk with trusted peers.

This is something I believe we need to consider with our students, particularly older students.

And yes we need to model these behaviors with our students - how else will they ever learn. Good points.

Jan

Joy

Jan, 

Your concerns about sharing with a few trusted friends is why I believe that classroom environment is important to a successful writing workshop. I work hard to give my students this feeling of safety from the first few moments of school. I do this by including them in the creation of classroom rules and behavior standards. It takes extra time, but is well worth it in the long run. 

However, there are always a few students who are reticent to share with a large group, so I structure my sharing time so we have turn and talk time (share with a partner), small group share (maybe there are only a few students ready), and whole class Friday shares. (Usually students who are ready to publish and have already worked out their editing and revisions and just want a final feedback.) Of course a few students share with me everyday as I conference with them. 

Joy

Wendy

Hi Joy,

I agree with your statements about the classroom environment. It is so important and your suggestions are good ones. I work with teachers who use a similar approach in collaborating with students to set up routines and rules. Also effective was the approach of the teacher who wrote to the students at the beginning of the year telling them a little about her plans and herself. The task for the students was to write back to her and tell her what they thought she needed to know about them so they could have a happy year. I thought this was an excellent way to set up a relationship but also to demonstrate the power of writing.

Wendy

Beth

We are such social learners!  (Look at us writing our thoughts and ponderings to total strangers!)

I believe sharing is an integral part of the writing process, and Jan makes a good point about CHOOSING whether to share, and with whom.

Last year was probably "my" best year ever with the kids' writing – and it was the year that nearly drove me crazy with the constant buzzing in the room as kids shared and conferred.  However... their growth and successes as readers point to the importance of sharing.

Beth

Wendy

We are getting close to finishing up Beth - so good to finish on a positive note. The role should talk more about that.

It reminds me that as teachers when we talk about audience and purpose it must not be only when we are thinking about writing. Our students need to understand that first in regard to 'talking' and how we use different forms of language, different grammar, and make a whole host of choices depending on the audience and purpose. Likewise, when we pick up a book perhaps we should say something like...While you read this/listen to this, think about the audience the author had in mind...What was his/her purpose?
Thanks again - I hope you and your students continue to enjoy success.

Wendy

Leslie

Good evening or good morning!!

Some of our students are beginning to write Personal Essays in grades 4-8.  It is hard for them to get to the "big idea" that they wish to convey to their readers....in other words, author's purpose.  So, do you think that children as young as 9 can identify some deep thinking behind an issue, a person in their lives, an event?  For example, one 6th grader wanted to write about the reality show "Lost."  With some encouragement from me (I am the literacy coach and go in and out of classrooms to help teachers and students), he was able to identify a big idea - "I think that violence on TV can have negative effects."

Are we aiming too high for these young writers?  Any thoughts as far as process goes?

Leslie

Wendy

Hi Leslie,

This is a good question.

I don’t know if you have seen the writing in Chapter 6 from Mrs. A’s classroom. These examples were written from students in a 4/5 classroom. The hard part was selecting the writing for the book as the quality was so high. The students had a terrific sense of   audience and purpose. There were several things at play as you will read in the chapter - the school placed a high priority on writing and literacy in general, the teacher developed a wonderful risk free environment in which relationships were excellent and the students viewed themselves as writers, and of course the teacher had an interest in teaching writing and read deeply on the topic.

I have visited the classroom since that writing was collected and the standard seems to get higher all the time. I think in answer to your question that we should have high expectations and provide teaching and learning experiences that will scaffold our students to success.

All the best,
Wendy

Jan

Hi Leslie

Yes it is still good morning here. Your questions are good ones. We certainly have raised the bar over the years with respect to literacy learning overall. I would never have expected my Grade 1 children to write other than a few sentences and certainly not a procedural text as young Sam did.

Having said that though I don’t think we are aiming too high. Our children are immersed in so much information from so many sources. I think they do have views about things that impact on them such as the child you quote. I think we do have to be careful however in the way we set up these writing experiences so that the children don’t see them simply as an exercise to please the teacher. The teachers' stories and their children's work we share in the book were very apt at setting explicit purposes for a range of audiences. For instance on page 72, you can see the list of writing that Olivia was asked to do. Her list clearly shows that she understands the purpose and that there is an audience for her writing.

Another critical point in writing on such topics as you indicate is the importance of 'talk'. Sometimes the best medium for such a topic is to prepare one's writing for the purpose of orally presenting it to peers etc. The process of doing this would be to go from sustained written text to making notes (even powerpoint) to talk to.

I have to say I am not quite sure what a 'personal essay' is. What is its purpose and who would be the audience? And does it lend itself to an oral mode?

Jan

Leslie

Thanks for your prompt response, Jan.  Personal essay, as referred to by those at Teachers College, is a genre in which the writer purports a journey of thought that is constructed somewhat like this.

    introduction with a thesis statement and a brief overview of support/reasons

    body with support in the form of anecdotes, perhaps (some embedded narrative) or   

    interview or quotes or statistics ( about 3 paragraphs)

    conclusion

If it sounds a bit formulaic, remember that this may be the first time the kids are doing this kind of writing and the structure helps get the job done.

Some personal essays I've seen:

Shopping with your mom can be grueling

Parents should think twice before considering divorce

Kids should decide when to do their homework

Dealing with adult children is tricky (that's my essay)

Leslie

Sharon

This message is to Leslie:

I would like to know your source for the information you include in your message. I have never heard anyone or seen published material from Teachers College including the “formula” you mention.

Thanks, Sharon

Leslie

Sharon,

I learned about personal essay about 4 years ago from a TC staff developer who is no longer with TC. If you'd like, I can hunt through my things to see if I can send you something that will better explain the process. TC does still include Personal Essay writing as a unit of study and I have recently taken workshops to support that unit.

Leslie

Wendy

Thanks for the clarification Leslie-here we call that exposition.  We start teaching an oral version in the first year of school and simple expositions are written soon after. It is a text type that students find quite easy to master.  We provide a simple rubric for young children on page 124 in our book.

Wendy

Phil

Hello,

I have found over my thirty years of teaching writing that audience and purpose are central to any task.  Also, writing for authentic audiences is paramount.  Today, authentic audiences are becoming much easier to access through blogs, through web-services like E-pals, through many other web-based forums and through programs like Write across America.

I try to push audience one further step.  Poe wrote in Philosophy of Composition, that all short works should endeavor to have a unified, single effect on their audience.  Having my students remember that their purpose is to have a single unified effect upon their audience, shapes the work from the beginning. 

When I speak of purpose, I might be saying things like to inform or to persuade or to convince.  When I speak of single effect, I might be sayings things like to surprise, to move to tears, to depress, to enlighten.  Talking about single effect in addition to purpose seems to elicit stronger responses from students.

Thanks,

Phil
Aurora Public Schools
Aurora Colorado

Wendy

Hi Phil,

It is good to read how you support your students to consider audience and purpose. You explain it very well. We tried to get that point across in the model we use on page 42. The centrepiece says that in identifying audience and purpose leads to a decision as to the genre or text type - the step you are referring to in your last paragraph. We go further to say that decision will have implications in how the writer engages in the process (some audience and purposes demand going through to published form, while others do not), decisions about punctuation, grammar, spelling etc.

Your point about blogs, etc raises an important point for us as educators, which is helping our students discern the importance of audience and purpose in this type of writing. An easy example is email - some emails (depending on audience and purpose) are quick and inaccuracies do not matter. Others demand me to engage in the process, consider grammar, etc even though my writing is still in the form of an email. For example, I am working on a government project at the moment and my emails to the government representatives in the project are carefully checked and quite formal. My emails to Jan (also working on the project) are brief, quickly written and certainly not formal as we battle our way through the deadlines.

We need our students to be able to make these decisions quickly and easily.

Thanks for raising this.

Wendy

Richard

Since there is so little activity today I want to focus just a bit of attention on "The teacher as writer"  (no, this isn't a subtle-- or less than subtle--poke at the absence of teachers writing on the listserve, even if it seems that way).  I am retyping a cameo from Writing Instruction K-6 written by Wendy: 

Cameo:  The Teacher as Writer

I tell my students about the writing I do for teachers and that I can spend months drafting and redrafting a chapter.  I tell them about my treasured "green" book where I jot down my ideas as a resource, my spasmodic attempts at writing a picture book, and how these attempts remain hidden in files in my office.  I tell them about the reports I write related to my job as well as my letters to family and friends (yes, I still write letters).  I tell my students about the e-mails I write to friends and for business and how different they are, and I tell them about the notes I leave all over the house.  I tell them the pleasure I get writing on cards for family and friends who are celebrating birthdays, anniversaries, and special occasions, and I tell them of the struggle I go through when I need to write a sympathy card or letter to a friend.  I tell my students I have special paper for reports, note paper for messages, beautiful paper and cards for letters, airmail paper to write to my overseas friends, paper for the printer in a range of colors, and loads of scrap paper for printing drafts.  All of my writing is connected with what I know about audience and purpose.  My life is full of writing, some of it important and some of it not at all important in the eyes of others, but every single piece, hidden or heading out into the world, has an audience and a purpose. 

I am willing to bet that almost every teacher subscribes to the idea that to be a teacher of writing one needs to write.  But I have to wonder how many teachers have given up the struggle.  And I wonder what it will take to regenerate the commitment of those teachers to put pen to paper.  I believe the emergence of the idea of teachers modeling writing for students over the last 15 years contributes enormously to the movement of teachers as writers.  And I respect those teachers for what they do, even if it goes no further.  However, it is wonderful when it does.  I can't help but encourage teachers to put more of themselves into their life as a writer, both the drafting and revising that are integral parts of the process, but also the meta awareness that allows the teacher to observe the process and participate in refining one's understandings and skills. 

My thanks to all of you who have contributed to this discussion.  We will welcome additional comments and questions on the topic of teachers as writers or on any other topic pertinent to writing instruction.  But I do have to urge you to speak up.  It is now mid day in Australia.  We will be bringing the conversation to a close at 9:00 pm in that part of the world, which should be 6:00 am tomorrow in New York.  Some of you may be like me, entirely too wide awake at 3:00 am.  For most, the evening will last only another couple of hours.  Jan and Wendy have agreed to carry over any unanswered questions until Wednesday morning their time, so if you have a burning question or comment you want to share, do it now or any time in the next eight hours. 

Richard

Lori

Great point, Richard.  I think it is so much like the fear teachers have of making art with children, some experiences in their past have created a conscious or unconscious sense of “I can’t.”  With art, the “I can’t” often results in “I don’t” and children live their lives in classroom devoid of any real art experiences. Now might be the time to confess I married an art teacher and am personally passionate about the need to create in the classroom. Teachers, thanks to curricular pressures, cannot simply NOT teach writing but I agree that to do it well means that you can model and share your own writing life with children. That can only lead to better teaching as I am quite sure that not one of us here in our cyber-community sprang from bed this morning to spend 30 minutes or more responding to a prompt like, “Tell about your Thanksgiving Holiday” or “Imagine a Teddy Bear came to life.”  I want instead to tell stories of the power of writing.  I tell them how my little sister, at the tender age of nine, decided you could indeed count the number of licks it takes to get to the tootsie-roll center of a tootsie pop and wrote the president of the company to tell him so.  She got a personal letter back from him, along with a certificate for one who knows and a whole lotta tootsie pops!  I talk about the pride I felt when I had a science fiction story published in a teacher magazine as a kid, or how writing to think through my theories and beliefs is a daily part of my life.  I tell them about the college professor I had who scored historically accurate blue book essay exams a B and reserved the A for those who were eloquent and forceful in their written arguments. I even show them the utterly awful (I don’t tell them that part) series of mystery novels I wrote when I was eleven, typing out each one on a cast iron typewriter my mother gave to me and illustrating them all with careful pencil drawing using my Barbie dolls as models. Kids need to know WHY they should bother with writing, that it can be joyful, cathartic, effective and deeply personal.

Lori
Happy to join Richard on a soapbox anytime!

Wendy

I love your writing stories Lori...your last statement is a powerful one!

I was thinking of Olivia as I read your piece. She has a piece of writing on page 73 of our book. Mrs A suggested when she wrote it to email it to the owner of Duckmaloi Park. The owner wrote back and asked if she could use a piece of it in her net brochure. Then I came to the class and after reading the piece asked if I could put it in our book. Perhaps some our students have stories like yours to tell about writing in their lives.

Wendy

Renee 

Richard, sorry I have been too busy to write and respond at this really, really busy time, but I do continue to check in on conversations here and our group of teacher researchers at my school in CA. have found them very helpful this fall.  I look forward to printing and reading the transcript of this one...  as we have done with Ralph and Yetta's conversations.  Very enlightening, but our time is limited and we are overwhelmed, and we are ALL struggling writers in our hearts!
 

Renee Keeler and the Costen Team at Lee Elementary in Los ALamitos, CA

Richard

Good morning Renee, 

I am with you that the lives of teachers are very busy, with limited extra time.   My intent is to remind all of us of the importance of being a writer and the importance of searching for a few minutes here and half an hour there.  The time we invest in writing pays dividends at least three times over--once in what it does to help refine our thinking, once in what it does to help refine our expression, and once in what it does to help refine teaching.  At least that's the way I see it.  This listserve and others is one medium; Wendy's treasured "green" book is another.  And I for one am thankful for the invention of the computer and word processing that allows all of us to write and read and edit and revise with a few clicks.  I love the opportunity to manipulate language and play with language in ways that I felt were not available to me when all I had was a typewriter and white out.  And I guess the other thing I like about computers is that I can save my work and slip it into a folder in some far corner of my hard drive when I am hesitant to share with others (which is most of the time). 

Richard

Wendy

Well said Richard. I agree with what you say about computers. I love that I can rush off a quick message and I also love that I can 'save' it and come back and rework etc when I want to. Thank goodness for the tools we have now. At the same time with 'Facebook' and similar tools many people enjoy the one off writing. In many ways that is why I enjoy the opportunities you provide through this listserve. It is very much like a conversation being able to read and respond to others thoughts. It is also an opportunity to 'eavesdrop' on other's thinking. I always learn a lot and refine my ideas and my teaching.

Thanks for the opportunity.

Wendy

Linda

Hi all,

I am thinking about the "teacher as a writer".  My perspective as a teacher changed completely when I took a class called "Teaching the Emergent Writer."  We were asked to write ourselves.  At first it was uncomfortable, then I began to enjoy it.  Then, we were asked to share....Again, I was uncomfortable; then, found myself looking forward to it.  Participating, allowed me to experience the process we asked children to participate in.  I still have (and value) the writing from that class. 

As a result of that experience, I changed the way students share writing in class.  There is now significant and planned instruction on responding to each other's writing.  Students are instructed first to give specific compliments.  This is not as easy as it sounds.   We also practice asking meaningful questions.  Sharing time becomes an opportunity for those sharing and listening to improve as writers.

Linda Parks
Lewis Elementary

Wendy

Hi Linda,

It is hard to add to your comment-it is so well stated.  In the 80's it was quite the thing to go to class and be asked to write. It was confronting but like you have said it was such a wonderful learning experience. I really learnt a lot about teaching writing,

Did you know that the wonderful book Possum Magic was born at one of those workshops? Perhaps we have some more Mem Fox’s lurking in our classrooms?

That type of learning doesn't occur much over here anymore. A good place to start might be the workshop we talk about on page 33 of the book - this is all about beginning by developing a definition of writing for the 21st century.

Thanks for your thoughts and reminding us of this powerful process.

Wendy

Genevieve

I have noticed that children seem to lack the willingness to accept the fact that writing can be challenging, and that it is a work in progress.  I continually hear, “I’m done” not long after they have begun their writing projects. During our Read Alouds and Guided Reading lessons we discuss writer’s craft and identify what quality writing looks and sounds like. I try to model routinely, using my own writing. The students seem to recognize the qualities of good writing and can articulate why they enjoy it. However, the willingness to persevere in the act of writing seems significantly lacking.   

Interestingly, I was taught the value of writing, though I struggle with producing my own drafts. Handwriting a note as opposed to buying a “Hallmark” card was always the norm. The older I get the more I notice the lessening of handwritten notes. When I do receive one, it is cherished.  I worry that writing is a lost art. Text messaging, emailing, and blogging may be reflective of a techie genre for this generation, but if that is the wave of the future, I hope that there will be someone left to draft my epitaph without the use of email or internet. (Hmmm…maybe I should start working on that by myself.)

Comments???

Genevieve

Jan

Genevieve

How interesting. Just yesterday I received a letter which was handwritten, even the envelope. I get my mail from a Post Office box and take it home before I open it. But this one I had to open right there and then. It was a lovely personal note from a friend who had come to stay. I relished the thought that had gone into the whole process and now have it pinned on my board over my desk!!

Yet I rarely handwrite these days. I don’t like my handwriting and have bought many a new pen with the hope that it will improve my writing. I can type faster than I can handwrite now so this is another reason I do it. And of course I can edit as I go - even when I am writing emails!

I think it would be useful to talk about this with students. I also find that when there is a real purpose, (hard to always find) the children are more likely to take the time and effort. They want their audience to receive the best they can do. This is what the teacher in our book seems to be able to get her students to do.

It is a challenge - anyone out there have any ideas?

Jan

Wendy

Hi Jan and Genevieve,

I have been out doing a staff meeting while you have been writing! 

Interestingly the topic was writing, in particular description.  I began with a quote from The Shadow of the Wind by Carlos Ruiz Zafron:

"Under the warm light cast by the reading lamp, I was submerged into a new world of images and sensations peopled by characters who seemed as real to me as my surroundings. Page after page I let the spell of the story and its world take me over, until the breath of dawn touched my window and my tired eyes slid over the last page. I lay in the bluish half-light with the book on my chest and listened to the murmur of the sleeping city. My eyes began to close, but I resisted. I did not want to lose the story's spell or bid farewell to its characters just yet."

I could have used many quotes but I thought this was a perfect example of beautiful writing and the feel of the reader.

I was hoping as we moved through the session it showed that not only do we have to be writers but also readers and share these passions with our students.

I was fortunate in that my mother has always been a letter writer. Now she writes weekly to her grand children. She does not live close by but has developed a wonderful relationship with the boys through her letter writing.

So as you both say how do we help our students perceive the value of all the different types of writing?

I think the answer is that it may be something different for each student and we just keep creating audiences and purposes that are real and meaningful until 'they get it'. It is also true that we can develop classrooms where students perceive themselves as writers and produce wonderful writing as in Mrs A's classroom (chapter 6). I found this classroom an inspiration and I hope we have 'retold' it in a way that you will too.

Thanks.

Richard

Good morning Genevieve, 

I've heard that phrase "I'm done" a lot too and I am not even in the classroom.  I think what I hear are echoes of my own childhood, when I did as little as possible--as a writer and as a reader.  But those were different days with different approaches to teaching. 

As publishers we have long advocated use of Meet the Author books with middle grade students to explore the writer's craft, and now with the first of the Author at Work titles we can extend the model into the middle school.  Are kids still resistant?  I wouldn't be surprised.  But we can never be sure what will click and when it will click.  And in the mean time the good models that teachers provide--through their own writing and through sharing other examples of effective writing--and through support of children as writers, something is happening. 

Margaret Mooney refers to the "residue" of teaching and learning.  I like that image.  We might not be able to see it, but it is there. 

Richard

Joy

I hear "I'm done" too much, as well. I try to remind myself that this happens because the student(s) haven't internalized the process fully. This tells me I must model the process more, show them what to do, how to do it, and what to do when they think they are done.

Joy/NC/4

Wendy

Good point Joy. The comments our students make give us a great deal to reflect on!  Why would my students say such and such when I have prepared them etc etc?  It is always about us isn’t it? Our role as a teacher. These conversations I think really activate that ‘reflection process;’ through the chance to articulate what we see and believe. Sometimes as I type I think back to a previous comment and rethink my first response.  You have provided yourself with an idea to try - hope it goes well.

Wendy

Lori

I think this redefining of writing is a double-edged sword.  Cursive is dying and I am personally willing to give it an elegant, Viking-style funeral and let it go.  Yet recently, as literacy coach for our district, I was really jumped upon because it is not stressed much in many classrooms and at least two entire buildings simply do not teach anything beyond a cursive signature.  One teacher challenged me with, "It is so much faster, kids have to learn it."  I tapped her laptop (I kid you not, she was taking notes with her laptop, as I generally do) and asked, "Faster that this?"  I went on to explain that the district has no official stand on cursive, my own feeling is that our teachers are under so many guns what with the increasing expectations to be instructors of all things great and small, that this one small thing we can let go of.

Contrast that with an experience I had with one of my son's teachers last year.  My youngest son is without a doubt the worst speller in history and his handwriting leaves me speechless--and clueless--but give him a keyboard and the world is his.  His middle school teacher began every conference with a walk down misery lane, griping about his handwriting and his spelling, and never got to anything else.  Drove me nuts.  I suggested that he be allowed to draft on his laptop (one for every kid in the school, so accessibility should not be the issue) and she was horrified in that way that only the arrogant and inexperienced can manage to pull off.  She explained to me, in her haughty way, that use of technology was a crutch.  And here is the kicker--all final drafts were keyboarded and scored by some ludicrous computerized scoring program!!  I simply pointed out that if my son had to give up his 'crutch' she ought to try giving up hers and try really teaching writing.  Not my finest moment, but not one I particularly regret either.

Lori

Robin

Richard, when I got your e-mail announcing the conversation with Turbill and Bean, I immediately thought of the British ice dancers of the 1980's, Torville and Dean.  I can't seem to get that image out of my head--artists gliding gracefully through their work for the rest of us to watch. 
 
I must confess that I have not read the book (which is why I haven't contributed to the conversation, feeling somewhat of an interloper), and I'm wondering what Jan and Wendy have to say about writing to learn.  I appreciate all they've said about process, purpose, etc.  I'd like to know their thoughts on writing to improve reading comprehension.
 
Jan?  Wendy? 
 
Robin Atwood

Jan

Hi Robin

I can tell you I am no Torville nor a Dean. Can’t move on ice and I can’t really claim I am graceful at anything much!

But ----- Writing to improve reading comprehension? I am not too sure what you mean by this but let me share what I think it means to me.

Frank Smith back in 1983 wrote a great article about 'reading like a writer'. He argues that we can’t possibly learn all that we need to learn about writing in class lessons. Reading he argues is the best demonstration of writing. However to 'pick up', learn from what we read, then we must perceive ourselves as writers and engage in texts as writers so we can 'see', learn from the writing of others. When I have worked with children and got them looking at texts such as ch 3  in Charlottes Web (there is more on this in the book Robin so you  better buy it and read it!!) they begin to see the language E.B. White uses to describe the barn, they focus on the way he uses repetition, the verbs he uses and so on. I call this 'getting inside the text.' I have found when you help students do this, they can better read the texts because they understand how they 'work'.  Another example is my First year undergrads this year. They had a text book to read on Child Development. Lots of new language and terms. I spent a tutorial session going through the way the chapter was written. We put on our 'writer's hat' and looked at headings, structure and so on. We got inside the text. What I found after that was the students found it easier to read the book.

Not sure if this is what you mean

Jan

Richard

What a terrific image!  I can see our promotion of Writing Instruction K-6 transformed into swirls and spins and leaps and glides.  But I know these dancers with words will be luring the crowd in the stands down onto the ice to join them in moving to the music. :) 

Richard

Wendy

Dear Richard,

Sadly the only thing we have in common with these artists is our age! I did try to ice skate once (not much snow and ice in Sydney Australia) and it was quite a sight! I might stick to writing...

Wendy

Jane

Dear Robin and Richard,

I loved your image and connection to Torville and Dean.  Your connection made me think of a wonderful text titled Dancing with the Pen.  Isn't that what we are all trying to do when we write? - dance across the page with swirls, spins, leaps, and glides with well choreographed words. 

Jane

Wendy

Well said Jane. It is certainly a nice image.

Wendy

Richard

Good morning everyone,

We have come to the end of this brief conversation with Jan Turbill and Wendy Bean.  Two days is sometimes too brief to clear one's throat (to borrow a pertinent phrase from Peter Duncan).  Our discussion was perhaps too short to get really started.  But Jan and Wendy, like everyone here, are very busy at this time of the year. They graciously agreed to spend time with us and I am honored that they did. 

It is now Tuesday night in Australia.  The authors have expressed a willingness to follow up any questions or comments that rise to the surface when they next access their email.  So as you begin your day, please feel free to post a last thought or comment for consideration. 

Many of you are familiar with Writing Instruction K-6.  And many of you use it as a text with teachers.  Thank you.  Please continue.  If, in the study of the book at the undergraduate or graduate level or in a faculty exploration of the book, a burning question emerges, please send it along to me or write to the authors directly.  They may not be able to respond immediately but I am confident they will do their best to provide your group with an answer. 

Are you familiar with the guide to accompany the text?  If you would like a copy please write to me offlist at richardowen@rcowen.com.  I continue to be intrigued by the idea of expanding the guide through user-sharing experiences in an internet-based format (I'm not trying to be vague--I don't yet know how to describe in just a few words what I mean).  Write to me at my email address if you want to know more.  Do you want to earn graduate credit for your study of the book?  Please visit ArmchairEd.com to find out how you can do it. 

My thanks to all of you for your continuing support of this series of conversations.  I especially want to thank Jan Turbill and Wendy Bean for their involvement.  They have been eloquent.  We will be taking a break for the coming month, but the listserve will be available for informal conversations if you so choose to use it, and we will be back after the first of the year with new conversations to inform and enlighten and engage our active minds. 

If you need to unsubscribe, please follow the instructions at the bottom of each TLN message or write to me directly at richardowen@rcowen.com. 

Thank you all for being here.  We wish you Happy Holidays!

Richard Owen

Wendy

Thanks Richard and fellow writers.

Our day has begun here and it is a lovely summer day-a little humid after some rain last night.

It was good to have the opportunity to connect through the list serve again. I really enjoy the conversations you set up Richard and appreciate the time people take to contribute. Our lives as teachers are such busy ones. We are heading to the end of our school year with just 4 weeks to go so things are winding up here with a flurry of school concerts, speech nights and of course the huge task of end of year reporting. Those weeks will fly and we know we will all be sitting down for Christmas dinner before we know it!

Thank you again to you and all the writers that contributed-it is nice to be in touch with teachers from so far away. Jan and I are looking forward to coming to IRA next year in Atlanta so if any of you are there introduce yourself to us-we will certainly be visiting Richard at his stand (I am presuming  you will be there Richard).

Thanks again to all those that have been part of this.

Best wishes for Christmas and the New Year.

Wendy

Jan 

Dear all

Sorry I have been off line last night so didn’t get to respond to later postings. I echo Wendy's comments and thank Richard for organising these sessions. I too have enjoyed writing to you all. I wish you all the best in your teaching of writing. It is complex area to teach and does not receive a great deal of financial support for  professional development in schools and in particular little research  funding (in comparison to what the teaching and learning of reading  does).

I am about to travel north to Coffs Harbour (about 300 miles on the  north coast) for four days to have an early Christmas get-together  with my brother's family, older nephews and their small children. I love playing Grand Aunt!!

Best wishes to all.

Jan

Richard

Wow!  The campfire that seemed to be doused earlier in the day flamed up while I was out!  And even now the embers are aglow. Thanks everyone for keeping fires burning.  It will be toasty this evening. 

We look forward to seeing Jan and Wendy and all of you at IRA in Atlanta next May. 

Richard