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Online discussion about Poetry with September 15-17 2008 Transcript © 2008 by Richard C. Owen Publishers, Inc. All rights reserved. Permission is granted to print, copy, or transmit this transcript for personal use only, provided this entire copyright statement is included. This transcript, in part or in whole, may not otherwise be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electrical or mechanical, including inclusion in a book or article, recording, or by any information storage and retrieval system, without permission in writing from the publisher. |
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Richard Owen Good evening folks,
Welcome to another scheduled conversation on TLN that focuses on current
ideas about teaching and learning. We are delighted to have with us for
the next three days a panel devoted to
A Conversation with Poets:
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Janet Wong Well, this might be a bit of a grim offering for a celebration of the opening of our poetry discussion, but…these are grim times that encourage discussion, aren’t they? And one of the things that I loved best about my poetry teacher Myra Cohn Livingston is that she believed in expanding the definition of “children’s poetry,” writing and sharing poems on difficult subjects. My two favorite books of hers, There was a Place and no Way of Knowing: Dallas Poems, included child-appropriate and simple but poignant poems about loss, divorce, poverty, and the assassination of JFK. I first learned about the polar bear drowning problem on either Gore’s or DiCaprio’s global warming documentary….and I wondered: Why don’t we create “polar bear rest stops” where huge blocks of sea ice used to be, so that polar bears don’t have to swim to exhaustion/death? When I saw this article a few weeks ago, http://www.latimes.com/news/science/environment/la-na-polar22-2008aug22,0,1879984.story, I was reminded of this rotten situation. Julie Paschkis, illustrator of our books Night Garden: Poems from the World of Dreams, Knock on Wood: Poems about Superstitions, and Twist: Yoga Poems, wants me to work on a new collection with “flow” as a theme (which makes me think of water), and so I wrote this poem:
Polar Bear
I’ve got
my foe,
One
hundred
I need
I found
what While most of us, poets and poetry teachers, bristle at the thought of teaching poetry by “picking poems apart” or talking about them too much, I still do think that nothing starts a meaningful classroom discussion the way a poem can. You can use a poem to talk about big, important things…and little, important things. It takes less than thirty seconds to read many poems, and yet…what bang for the buck! These days, when teachers are stressed and pressed for time, poetry is a patch, a cure, a pick-me-up--a cup of coffee for the curriculum! All best wishes, Janet |
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Betsy Franco Hello from California. I woke up way too early and decided to post this. Going back to sleep now for a bit. Look up
in the sky and seasonally This poem is from Bees, Snails & Peacock Tails, which is about geometry in nature. I remember seeing a team of ducks flying in formation and thinking it looked like an angle in mathematics. I often write about math in nature. This one doesn't have the humor I often put into my poems but other poems in the book do, like the one about the puffer fish who puffs up into a sphere because he doesn't want to be someone's gourmet dish. The poem above is a visual poem because the lines are in the shape of a V. I had to do some research and I was careful about picking words that had some strength: migrate, wedge, slice. I like
math a lot, love it actually, so I write about it often--started writing
about it in Mathematickles! I'm glad to say that when I go to
the classroom, my math poems are a way into poetry for some logical,
left-brain kids. |
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J. Patrick Lewis I'd like to open (greedily) with two poems, if I may. At the risk of diminishing the seriousness of the issue, I'd like to follow up on Janet's moving and felicitous polar bear poem with a a silly one of my own that will appear in my forthcoming: Count Down to Summer: A Poem for Every Day of the School Year (Little, Brown, 2009).
Polar Bear Rap
Weather be chilly, Weather be nice Whether we swimmin’ Up over de ice.
Whether we eatin’ Paw-lickin’ sweet Saturday, Sunday, Monday meat.
Weather be sleetin’, Weather be snow Whether we stayin’ But we gotta go.
Weather be nuttin’ Less’n me ‘n’ you Bust on outta this Nuttin' much zoo. Wordplay isn't the be-all and end-all of children's poetry, but I believe a strong case can be made that it is a large part of it. Since the ideas for poems come not from ideas but from words or phrases, I spend most of my days hanging out with words, as I hope the example below demonstrates.
In A Word
Inside their walls, some words include the perfect mate— ungrateful dude (or laboratory) and evil eye, meringue, entwined believe, far cry treat, puppet, grunt, and shallowness, but best (or worst) is loneliness.
J. Patrick Lewis |
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Sylvia Vardell What a treat to start the week with original poems by these wonderful writers! Thanks, guys. Since I am the non-poet in the group, I'd like to toss out a challenge to the teachers, parents, and librarians who are reading. Check your library shelves. How many of the works of Betsy Franco, Rebecca Kai Dotlich, J. Patrick Lewis, Marilyn Singer, and Janet Wong do you have? Hmmm... Based on research that I've done in hundreds of school and public libraries (with the help of many graduate students), I'm betting you have very, very few. Most libraries carry the three big anthologies of Shel Silverstein and plenty by Jack Prelutsky, but not much else. And nothing against Silverstein and Prelutsky whatsoever-- they're contributions to poetry for children have been HUGE-- but they're not the only poets out there, as Betsy, Rebecca, Pat, Marilyn, and Janet make very apparent. Building the poetry book collection should be a first priority since ACCESS to a variety of poetry is the first step. We can't read what we don't have. Or prove me wrong and tell me that you have many of the 240 combined poetry books of these five terrific poets! Sylvia Sylvia
M. Vardell, Ph.D. Author
of: |
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Lori
We are putting $300 into every single classroom for the express purpose of purchasing poetry. Sylvia, I am the lit coach who asked permission to publish your recommendations for 25 tip poetry books and I am delighted to see many of our teachers making use of this list. In addition, we put a collection of poetry for check out (as a set) in all of our buildings—35 darn good books. Last year I helped bring Poetry Alive to our middle school and as a result, they couldn't keep poetry books on the library shelves. Found a grant to put $300 worth of poetry into each classroom and another $2000 on the shelves. They still can't keep the books on the shelves!! Keep those lists coming!! Lori |
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Sylvia A budget just for poetry! How lovely, Lori! Dedicating funds to poetry acquisition is a way to show you value poetry and those seeds can pay back big time. For just a few dollars can get books that kids will read again and again-- since poetry is one of those genres that kids often RE-visit. That's a good investment-- both from a financial and from a literacy development point of view. Sylvia |
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Cynthia I'm excited to (finally) have a listserv devoted to poetry and poets! Thank you for this opportunity. As a middle school librarian, I don't have a lot of titles by these poets, but I do have a few of each. Our lower school has more, of course, and I'm very familiar with many of them. I am lucky to have some teachers who use poetry widely--beginning each day with Billy Collins' Poetry 180, or his newer anthology, so our poetry collection is quite substantial. Last year, after a year of poetry studies, students anonymously taped up their favorite poems all over the school, signing them, "The Poetry Bandit," or "You've been struck by the poetry bandit." Some of the poems were favorites, others were location-specific-- a poem about germs taped to the Purell dispenser, etc. It was fun for the students doing it and for everyone else trying to figure out who the bandits were. Last week, I laminated some of the poems that didn't disappear over the summer for more permanent display-- my hope is that the buzz continues and that students and teachers soon find poems everywhere they go within the school. Thank you for sharing your poems so far this morning -- I've already put them up in strategic locations to get everyone going this year. --cynthia
Cynthia Grady, Head Librarian |
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Pat Ah, a poetry aficianada/librarian all in one! Brava, Cynthia. Glad to have you aboard. Thanks so much for writing. I think your Poetry Bandit idea is inspired. Here's one that might be helpful...for young poetry writers:
Keep a
Pocket in Your Poem Keep a pocket in your poem Filled with any wondrous thing You can think of—red hawk feather, Silver penny, pinkie ring,
Yo-yo, M&M’s, a ticket To a rollercoaster ride, Pictures of your pug. A poem Needs a pocket on the side.
So— Keep a pocket in your poem For imagination grows From the deepest secret pockets Every pocket poet knows. [Note: The poem above will appear in a January 2009 issue of LANGUAGE ARTS Magazine. ]
Cheers, Pat |
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Betsy
Wow,
you really woke me up with the image of poems all around the school. I
anthologize teenage poems in my series of teen-written anthologies for
Candlewick (see list below). I find that all students will read peer
poetry and enjoy it--if it's honest or funny or whatever. I guess what I
mean is, if it's not a strict assignment with lots of parameters. When
I say all students, I mean all. My book was taken out of the boys'
juvenile hall library and not returned, over and over again. When I
visited, they wrote their own compelling poems in response to some of
the peer poems in You Hear Me? |
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Janet
Yes, Sylvia: Viva VARIETY! For those of you who want to explore Sylvia’s point, I think you’ll enjoy her book Poetry Aloud Here! This book is a great resource with lots of practical ideas on how to share a wide variety of poems with children. One of my favorite chapters is “What Happens After You Share the Poem?” with the idea that we should just open the door to discussion…and children might refer to a poem days or weeks after you share it. Pat: I love the fact that your polar bear poem is so different from mine. And that your free-spirited bear rap is almost the polar opposite of your analytical “In A Word.” As for the “ungrateful dude,” I think he is not only a RAT, but a DUD, too! I can see myself thinking about that poem for days and weeks, as I apologize for the mistake of intERRupting...and take comFORT while hiding out in my office… Janet |
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Pat I can see myself thinking about that poem for days and weeks, as I apologize for the mistake of intERRupting...and take comFORT while hiding out in my office… Yes, Janet, I agree. The "word in a word" wordplay is infectious. Perhaps because doing it well is so damnably difficult. Pat |
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Sylvia Go, Cynthia, glad to hear you are such a poetry advocate. And I love the idea of the "poetry bandit." May I quote you on that please? It reminds me of what another poet, Georgia Heard, calls a “living anthology.” She says, “Instead of collecting poems we love and putting them in a book, we’ll make an anthology out of the walls and spaces around the school. It will be our jobs to make sure poetry is all around the building so that other students and teachers can have a chance to read some poetry” (Heard, 1999, p. 23). I have a former student who is a librarian in south Texas and she has student volunteers read a poem aloud each morning during the school announcements. It's a big hit across the campus. Do you all have other ways to infuse poetry into the school or library environment? Sylvia
Sylvia M.
Vardell, Ph.D. |
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Cynthia I was just about to start writing that while I thank you all for the compliments-- I can't take credit for the idea. It began, in fact, after reading Georgia Heard's Awakening the Heart, which was recommended to me by writer/poet Mary Quattlebaum. It is a fantastic reference for teachers and poets to begin sharing poetry. I was taping up a few poems after school one afternoon thinking I would challenge the students the following week to commit "random acts of poetry," when a 6th grade teacher caught me-- she flew with the idea and either she or her students came up with "poetry bandits." I'll ask and get back to you, but I'm sure she wouldn't mind being quoted. Thanks again, --cynthia |
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Marilyn Singer Good morning all from Marilyn Singer. I see that I'm the late riser in this bunch. But then again, I'm the late-going-to-bed-der, too, I'll wager. It's grand to wake up to poetry, though. And a kiss to Sylvia for asking that tough question about whether you own our books (or know who we are, for that matter). I sure won't take it personally if you don't. However, I think that Sylvia's point refers to more than just poetry. Let's take polar bears, for example. Because polar bears are the Shel Silverstein of the animal kingdom, people a) go to see them in zoos; b) actually give a hoot about their demise. Global warming? Yeah, when the polar bears start going, we believe it's true. However, there are millions of other species out there that we don't know or care so much about. So, the snail darter disappears. Big deal. We've got salmon, right (or do we?). Who needs that many kinds of fish anyway? Who needs that many poets? Well, as Sylvia and Janet say, Variety is good for the soul! Lots of critters and lots of poets? That creates a sense of wonder about the world, don't you think? A sense of richness and possibilities... Now, do I expect everyone to love poetry? Nope. Do I think people have the potential to? Yep. Depending on how it's presented to them. My most recent book is First Food Fight This Fall, a collection of poems featuring some of the students in Miss Mundy's class. I used different poetry forms for the different voices. Each kid has a bit of an arc--growing, developing, changing by the end of the school year. Among my favorites is Laksmi, who starts off being bored by poetry and then wakes up. There are three poems in her voice, all haikus, spread out through the year: WHAT I THINK OF POETRY Laksmi: Poetry makes me sleepy: words like a lulla- by in a warm room.
WHEN MS. MUNDY READ US A POEM Laksmi: I fell asleep as usual. Only this time I dreamed of flowers.
SPRING ME! Laksmi: What woke me? It might have been a robin. It might have been a poem. How does Laksmi finally wake up to poetry? Could it be the way Miss Mundy presented it? How did she do that? Teachers, tell us! We would like to know about your successes with the genre we love to write. Marilyn |
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Marilyn
Cynthia Grady, YOU'RE Miss Mundy! We love you!
Marilyn |
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Janet A poem about germs taped to the Purell dispenser! Genius!! Thank you,Cynthia, for sharing that. In the kitchen drawer that holds the dog biscuits, I keep "The Revenant" by Billy Collins (from The Trouble With Poetry), a poem in the voice of a dog who was put to sleep and now can complain about his life. Here are the last four stanzas of that poem: From “The Revenant” by Billy Collins The jingling of my tags drove me mad. You always scratched me in the wrong place. All I ever wanted from you was food and fresh water in my metal bowls.
While you slept, I watched you breathe as the moon rose in the sky. It took all of my strength not to raise my head and howl.
Now I am free of the collar, the yellow raincoat, monogrammed sweater, the absurdity of your lawn, and that is all you need to know about this place
except what you already supposed and are glad it did not happen sooner-- that everyone here can read and write, the dogs in poetry, the cats and the others in prose.
I'll echo Marilyn: Teachers, please let us know what other neat things you've been doing with poetry at your schools!
All best, Janet |
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Betsy
Since so
many classrooms are filled with testing and core reading programs, I
think poetry is more important than ever. Children need to be able to
tap into the creative part of themselves, even if for a brief period
each day or each week. I remember as a kid, when something tapped that
creative, free part of myself, I actually woke up in class and felt like
something made sense. I was a good student but none of it really
touched me, except poetry...and math. |
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Jane
Well, we read poems from all you poets, and many more, each day. I have
copies of poems by published poets and poems written by children in my
classes on transparencies. We spend about 15 minutes each afternoon,
just calming down and reading poems together. Last week, though, we
read Florian's space poems book instead of doing the overhead, and we'll
read George's hummingbird collection this week. There are just so many
amazing poets out there to cherish. And children will usually write
some poetry of their own when they're reading poems daily. I want to
put some poems up today on the backs of the bathroom stall doors. |
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Betsy
That
phrase calming down really resonated with me. Poetry has
that effect, doesn't it? |
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Janet HOO-RAY for Jane! We need more people like you; fifteen minutes of poetry each afternoon is truly inspiring! I think the bathroom stall doors are perfect places for poetry. I love what Andrew Hudgins wrote in Paul Janeczko's book Seeing the Blue Between: Advice and Inspiration for Young Poets (page 56): "Poems are great bathroom reading. They're short and they each contain a whole thought, so you can finish two things at one time, if you know what I mean..." Janet |
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Lori I had a loft in the classroom and stapled poetry posters (teacher made, our shared reading that was charted and illustrated) on the ceiling. Kids laid on their backs and read the ceiling. They loved it so much, we taped under all the tables. Lori |
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Jayne What a FANTASTIC idea!!! I am going to pass this on to my teachers...thanks! Jayne |
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Linda Guess what I am doing tomorrow. I don't have a loft in the room, but I can put poems in more strategic places. Thank you.
Linda |
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Lori I also think recitation is a seriously overlooked skill. I am coaching now, but poetry and song was so much the fabric of my classroom that my kids simply came to know their favorites and while we did the jam at the end of the year, Fridays were for kids who wanted to recite. No requirement, just invitations. Had a second grade boy one year who could perform “Gathering Leaves” without blinking an eye. We did a bit of Frost and Dickens, quite a bit of Langston Hughes and some old stuff, mixed in the nonsense and other poets more commonly associated with childhood. And I had six baskets of poetry (nature poetry, classics, two baskets of nonsense poets, themed collection and anthologies) in my classroom. Lori |
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Linda Jane, Nothing wrong with putting poetry in strategic places. I have prints by Monet, Van Gogh, Picasso in our student bathrooms! You wonder every year when you start off, will I make an impression on these students? How can I change their lives? Turn them on to learning? One of the boys in my class "hated" writing last year. All his mom wanted from me was to help him write...actually want to write. I introduced him to the love of poetry. I don't know how; maybe just listening to the love I have for poetry? His mom is just delighted and so is he! I just wish the curriculum would allow love for a subject. Linda |
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Georgia Ok. Now I have to brag on my poetry on geometry. I wrote it, oh, like 10 years ago and I only recently had it translated into Spanish so that it could be Bilingual. This is only 3 pages of it--there are 8 pages in all; I wrote it for my sixth graders to teach geometry in a weird way. I didn't really use it. I retired because NCLB came in. Please tell me what you all think. gh WHERE HAS POLY GON? HOW IT BEGAN: Once upon a time There was a very tiny line, So small, it was only yet a point. He hung around the 'guys' Trying to get wise Pretending he was part of their joint.
One day he heard them say In their liney sort of way That they could make a polygon. Little Point had never heard Of that very strange word, So he wondered: how could they make a poly gon?? He looked for Mr. Line Whom he talked to all the time, And asked: 'what is and where has, poly gon? Mr. Line made himself into a smile, Looked at 'Li'l Point child' And said: "Let me tell you all about poly gon?” 'You ask , "Where has Poly gon to?" Suddenly, Li'l Point turned round to-- All the other lines giving giggles. They smirked and they smiled, And they laughed at 'Li'l point Child', Then they settled in one place with a wiggle. They all loved Mr. Line Who told a tale ever so fine_ No one would ever make a jiggle! "Ah, listen to my story, Of one point, grown to glory Where he became a very mighty line. He had friends, thick and thin, Wiggling out and wiggling in, Where they whoopied and they doopied all together. They were dotted; they were curly They could do the swirly-whirly They could do this, like a team, like no others! Winter, summer, spring, or fall. They could do it, one and all, They could swirl 'n curl just like brothers!" "Is this some sort of rap you are doing, Mr. Line?" asked Li'l Point. |
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Betsy I love your phrase, "Where has poly gon?"
I think
it's great to bring poetry and math together. It allows mathematicians
to become poets and poets to become mathematicians. Basically, poetry
about math or science is a bridge for kids who are heavily oriented
toward the logical or heavily oriented toward the poetic, and say they
don't understand either poetry or math. Or so they think. |
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Kathy I think the idea of bridging the gap between the more logical and the more creative through poetry is brilliant! My daughter's high school geometry teacher gave the assignment to write a valentine poem using geometry terms (I guess geometry inspires poetry!). If I may be a proud mother for a moment here is Gabby's "logical creation" Our hearts are congruent Our minds parallel But life is a fraction without you So please don't subtract me Because I love you.
Kathy I also LOVE the idea of random acts of poetry and poetry bandit! |
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Lori I love it!! Lori |
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Janet This is very fun and bouncy, Georgia! Thank you for sharing it with us! I especially like “in their liney sort of way,” which could probably inspire a 10-page treatise by a math doctoral student as to the essence of lineal behavior and its mutations… I think kids love hearing poems written by their teachers, and I also think it makes them feel more comfortable and excited about an assignment when a teacher does it with them. So I would urge any of you who are interested in writing poems for publication to pick a topic and design writing exercises that will allow you to build on your creative body of work as you model the exercise. Or simply try to build 5-15 minutes of creative quick-writes into your day, and use that time to reach your personal writing goals (and read your work product aloud immediately after)! Janet |
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Georgia Well, part of the reason for writing this was to take a point, and relate it to the fact that, 'a line is a series of points in a direction'. (Isn't that exciting?) This whole story goes on to the lines discovering their 'direction' in life and what they can do with their little selves. Oh! the discoveries they make! They can bend sharply into angles, even triangles, and finally into closed shapes. (And all in rhyme, of course.) But the poor little point gets to be almost a subplot of the story because no one seems able to tell him 'where HAS poly gon?' He doesn’t give up asking, however, to the very end. I love personification. I have this whole thing practically memorized by now, so that, when I teach kids in the summer time at the University at KidsU (4th to 7th graders) I recite it as they 'line' up to leave the computer lab. Of course they think I am weird, but they listen. They wonder. And hopefully, they will try on their own to do something like this. gh |
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Janet You’re presenting us with a wonderful “teaching opportunity,” Georgia…and I hope you don’t mind if I take it! When I’m working with kids, many of them like to write in rhyme. After pointing out my favorite elements of the poem, I usually say, “My challenge to you is to write a second draft that uses zero rhyme.” I acknowledge that they probably love their draft as-is and instruct them not to “mutilate” the poem by crossing out too vigorously or erasing (actually it’s best when they simply circle or underline a few of their favorite parts of Draft 1 and then start fresh on a different piece of paper). I’ll also give them other ideas for how to structure the poem: you can use repetition to hold the poem together. Pick an important line and repeat it a few times, maybe changing 1-2 words each time. Or: cut the poem in half. Or: adhere to a certain meter. Or: write it in a series of haiku. Even when I LOVE a student’s rhyming poem, I will still suggest this…simply because I want them to experiment with revision. Using zero rhyme can inject a fresh idea that is relevant to the subject matter and really clicks. Very often, to my enormous gratification, students who saw no way of improving their first draft will nonetheless successfully write a very different 2nd draft on the same theme—a second non-rhyming draft that they like even better. And when that happens: EPIPHANY! They suddenly understand the magic of revision. If they take just one word from the second draft…or if the second draft simply reinforces their feeling that their first poem was The Best Poem Ever, still it’s been a useful exercise. Georgia: Would you be willing to try this with your Poly Gon poem (at least with the excerpt that you shared with us)? You might still prefer the draft you shared with us (which very likely isn’t the first draft)…but would you be willing to try a shorter, non-rhyming draft, and see what happens? (By the way, I think it is SUPER that you RECITE from memory as they’re lining up to leave…I do agree that some of them must think you’re a bit weird to do that…but WEIRD is GOOD for them! Question for our fellow poets: How many drafts do you write, on average? I probably write between 5-20 drafts of a poem. Janet |
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Georgia I am not sure what you are asking for when you ask as you did:
"Georgia: Would you
be willing to try this with your Poly Gon poem (at least with the
excerpt that you shared with us)? You might still prefer the draft you
shared with us (which very likely isn't the first draft)…but would you
be willing to try a shorter, non-rhyming draft, and see what happens?
(By the way, I think it is SUPER that you RECITE from memory as they're
lining up to leave…I do agree that some of them must think you're a bit
weird to do that…but WEIRD is GOOD for them!)" So, from the pieces and parts of it I had on disc, I rewrote it in rhyme. (And how many times, someone asked? A zillion times. As long as it is not locked in steel off to be published, I keep on rewriting it--and illustrating it, and laying it out into powerpoint for a pdf conversion and so on and on.) It is never perfect. You have to see the whole thing to get the whole POINT. It just flows better in rhyme--otherwise, the geometry gets too heavy, philosophically speaking. It attacked me as a rhyme--on the rewrite. It just kept on coming into my head and I couldn't stop it. (Poetry is like that for me.) The first draft was like maybe in 1998...I kept thinking back then, will the kids get the point of lines and shapes, and it came to me: maybe the point has to get to them. So, the point was born, on a quest for answers. That was the first writing: the story of a dialogue between a point and a line. I wish I had the original. Some teacher in CA does. I hope she used it well and taught from it well. Anyway, I have to respect the poem that attacks me. I have to give it space. That's why it's the way it is today. gh |
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Janet Now that you’ve explained how long you have lived with “Poly Gon” Georgia, I can see your hesitation to revise it yet again. It sounds as if the text has indeed become part of your soul. Revising can be excruciating…One way to teach it is to use other people’s writing, published poems. Tell kids that they just have to make the poem different (while retaining the basic message). You will likely have several students who will prefer their revised free verse versions to the established rhymes. About teaching rhyme: students do love it, and justifiably so when they are able to come up with a clever rhyme pair. But I encourage them to try off-rhyme, too…and I make a big (good) fuss when they use it. Janet |
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Betsy Janet, I'd love to know what you teach them about rhyme and off-rhyme. I agree that teaching off-rhyme is an excellent idea and takes away some of the forced rhyming, but can you elaborate just a bit?
Betsy |
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Marilyn Wow, Janet--what grand ideas! And what a good plug for revision. Teachers often whisper in my ear would I please remind their students that it's important to rewrite, that things aren't usually perfect on the first draft. So I try to mention that when I talk to kids. I know how frustrating it can be to revise--but it can also be satisfying. Frustrating, satisfying, or something else, it's a major part of being a writer. Having said that, I must confess that I don't usually do lots and lots of drafts of poems. I certainly do revise, but I couldn't tell you how much or how many revisions I do. I think it's amazing that you write 5-20 drafts, and since I think your poetry is also amazing, this technique clearly works for you. For me, if the poem really isn't going where I want it to go after several revisions, my feeling is that it ain't gonna work. However, I cannibalize my poems all the time, so I use lines and image in new poems. I do know that I revise prose a lot more, generally because I change storylines as I write fiction or because I find new information as I write nonfiction. Marilyn |
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Betsy
The
revising goes on forever, even in my head once a book is published,
because I always know more about poetry by the time the book comes out.
I revise at least 20 times. |
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Sylvia What a treat to get these teaching/writing perspectives from published poets. Revision is the CRUX of the matter, isn't it, whether one is writing poetry, stories, reports, or something else? And I always think it's great for teachers to write alongside their students, modeling their own struggle to find the right word. I remember once, as a former sixth grade teacher, I brought in a research paper that I was working on for a graduate course and worked on a part of it while my students were working on their writing. They were completely stunned to see the MESS I made on my paper-- with scratchouts, arrows drawn to move portions, etc. They couldn't believe that grown ups didn't write perfect drafts from the very beginning. My messy example was more powerful than any lecture, of course, and that surprised me at first. Personally, I think it's better to work on something AUTHENTIC, something I really need to get written, rather than tackle the assignment the students are working on. I know other teachers can pull it off, but that was my approach. Maybe it's my sixth graders, but they were very susceptible to examples and would try to imitate my example in order to "assure" their success. Also, I want to encourage the aspiring writers among you to seek out some of the many resources available to you-- the excellent SCBWI (Society for Children's Book Writers and Illustrators), the massive Writer’s Market book, the Children's Book Council web site, summer workshops led by the Highlights Foundation, and of course read, read, read. Sylvia |
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Deb Hi! I've got to say that I love teaching moments and teachers who take advantage of them! I've come across many a teacher who actually tells me when we explore writing and especially trying out poems ourselves "If it doesn't rhyme it isn't a poem...” I just cringe and want to really shake them up. This does get transmitted to the kids and they will pick up on it and then internalize it. It limits our chances of getting kids writing and adults too. Poetry becomes so narrowly defined that way. Deb |
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Betsy
I usually
encourage kids not to rhyme because it makes their poems feel more
forced and they can often express themselves more clearly without it.
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Richard Janet, I am conscious of the point you make at the end of your message about "picking poems apart" (and the bristling that goes along with that action), but I am curious about the development of Polar Bear. And so I will ask my questions anyway? :) Did you have an idea of "message" at the time you started writing the poem? Did you write through several drafts to get to a final draft or did it seem to emerge on the page with little revision? Did the poem change shape or form in the process? If so, was it intentional on your part? By the way, the short, short lines left me feeling the bear is gasping for breath and by the end I was taking my breath in gulps as well. Richard |
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Janet Dear Richard (and all): Here is an earlier draft of the polar bear poem. This is not the first draft, but it was one of the first…maybe #3. Did I have a “message” at the outset? Yes, of course: I wanted to describe the polar bear problem with a poem that would encourage kids to discuss global warming. Polar Bear (earlier draft) Poor polar bear wonders, searching: Where, where, where did the ice floes go? Where are the rest stops I used to know?
Poor polar bear wanders, searching: swims and swims a hundred miles. There, there, there! I see an ice floe! Polar bear swims another mile, but the ice floe crumbles under his paw.
Where did the ice go? Why did it thaw?
In this later (maybe final) draft, below, I decided that I would change voice. Instead of talking ABOUT the polar bear’s plight, I would expand my use of the voice of the mask and BE the polar bear. I used less repetition because, imagining myself as a drowning, exhausted, swimming polar bear, I had very little energy to expend. Speaking as that breathless bear, the lines became shorter, the rhythm more terse/tense. Another change: instead of his paw touching the slushy floe, I have the floe crumbling from the bear’s mere breathing. On the one hand, paw might be better (evocative of “carbon footprint”) but breath might better represent “warming” and the extreme fragility of the situation. I prefer this later draft because I think it is less heavy-handed. It still is heavy…but so is a polar bear who has been swimming for a hundred miles! Polar Bear (later draft) I’ve got to find
some ice, a floe,
a resting place—
my foe, warm sea
has melted all
so far beyond
where I can swim—
One hundred miles—
I need to rest—
I found one piece
of softened ice
that crumbled when
I breathed relief—
what happened to
the glacial cold,
the old refuge
that I once knew? |
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Hope
Richard and Janet, |
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Deb I'd like to know how all of you figured out you are and/or wanted to be writers. What clued you into that part of you. Did that self-revelation surprise you or not? Thanks, Debbie |
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Betsy
I'd like
to answer this question before I have to go. I'll be back in a while.
I originally thought I'd be a painter but when my two oldest sons were
born, they were so creative and mischievous, I couldn't set up my
paints. I knew I absolutely needed to do something creative or I would
shrivel up and maybe go mad. So I tried writing--I only needed a
pencil. BTW, in about third grade, I had written a picture book of
sorts, so that had always been a possibility in the back of my mind. I
used what I knew about painting to become a writer. I also eventually
joined SCBWI.org and took workshops, etc. Thank goodness, the creative
transfer worked, and I've been writing ever since (poetry, picture
books, YA novels). |
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Marilyn Poetry was the first stuff I ever wrote, and it's still my favorite thing to write. When I was young, I thought maybe I'd be a writer (or a dog kennel owner), but my mom suggested that I teach because writing was an uncertain career. She sure was right! I did teach for a while, but I was a bit avant garde for the system (e.g. I used song lyrics to teach poetry; the horror!). When I quit teaching, I didn't know what I was going to do. One day, I begin writing stories based on insect characters I'd made up when I was a kid and I wrote those down. And yes, it surprised me! I sent those and some other stories around and was lucky to have one turned into a picture book. Then I had two more manuscripts accepted. So that made me decide that, yes, I was a writer. I wish I could say that the road was smooth after that. It wasn't. It was and continues to be quite bumpy indeed. I always write, but some years I sell very few manuscripts. Writing is not a career for folks who give up easily or for those who can't take rejection. Oy vay! Marilyn |
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Deb Hi Again, I teach online graduate level literacy methods courses and this semester two of my classes (probably should be all 3) are to keep writers notebooks/journals. With that in mind, I'm curious to know if you all keep writer's notebooks? How many of your poems or stories (if you feel like telling us) start from a kernel of an idea that you first wrote about there? Thanks, Deb |
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Betsy
Geez, I'm
supposed to leave but I can't seem to. |
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Deb That's really cool. So you really write (even if it is notes) just about anywhere and probably while you're doing tons of different things.
Thanks, and get off for a while and get done what you need to get done!
Come back though... Deb |
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Marilyn I don't keep a notebook, but I tend to write down ideas from time to time on bits of paper, which fly around my house. Because it's easier to sell thematic collections, I often think of a theme and then see if it interests me enough to use in poems. If it does, I go on a tear, often writing several poems a day (not all of which make it into the collection, of course), and I drive my husband nuts reading these poems to him. He knows when I'm working because my eyes glaze over and I don't hear what he's saying. He says that's when I'm "poetizing." Marilyn |
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Rebecca Dotlich Hi Deb. I do keep writer's notebooks. Many. First of all, I love the feel of them, the look of them, the exciting way I feel when I look at the blank pages. I've always been a fool for 'school supplies.' :) But seriously, I really tried and still try, unsuccessfully, to keep one for ideas, one for poem starters, one for favorite words, one for random thoughts, etc., but it doesn't work out that way. I continue to try -- in vain. I end up mixing up and grabbing the idea one for the first line, the random thought one for the favorite word one, etc. I can't say, for me, that many poems actually get started from those kernels. It seems a poem starts more from a fleeting idea, a word or two, something I see, overhear, wonder about. A truly inspired line from a novel or poetic prose can, and often does, tell me it's time to write a poem. Rebecca
Rebecca Kai Dotlich
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Deb Thanks! I keep a notebook, too. My notebooks tend have bits and pieces of my life in it as well, not just writing related stuff. Part of a grocery list is in one of them. It is better to keep a grocery list out of the notebook and in the kitchen or somewhere else but that time it worked out ok. Deb |
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Janet Good morning, all! Lots of great posts came in last night. Here’s a little bit about notebooks: I think that more kids would enjoy keeping a notebook if it were like yours, Deb…full of stuff (movie stubs, photos of cars or fashion, friends’ iPod playlists, to-do lists), not just writing. Hopefully that “stuff” would contain the seeds of some good writing. In my book Minn and Jake’s Almost Terrible Summer, Jake keeps a notebook in his cargo pants pocket, but it’s not for “creative writing,” it’s for video game ideas that will someday (next year) make him a millionaire! I’d like to think that my book will inspire some kids to scribble notes as game ideas pop into their heads. I’ve never kept a good notebook except for the month when I was a writer-in-residence at the USC Writing Project many years ago. Otherwise I get started and stop within a week or two, give up. The closest thing to a journal in my life now would probably be the Sent folder of my email Inbox. If I did keep a journal, who knows…maybe I’d have 91 books instead of 19! Janet |
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Deb Wow, 19 books!? Those 19 books are really great works. Back up that Sent folder regularly! (By the way... it is so cool to have you and the writer's in this discussion in my "Inbox"!!!! I feel the same way about Yetta Goodman, Brian Cambourne and many, many, many others.... ) Like you, though, I stop and start notebooks & journaling. Some of them are little (too little) and some of them are large with hard covers (too big at times) and then what some might call junk ones... wide ruled composition books. My favorites though are those with pages that are line-less or that have grid pattern because then I feel free to make whatever in it. What I mean is that I've been schooled to think that lines means writing words... sometimes I need to doodle, diagram, etc. and lines just don't cut it. Deb |
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Rebecca Some of them are little (too little) and some of them are large with hard covers (too big at times) Well, aren't you the Goldilocks of journaling :) And I'm with you on ALL of the above. I keep thinking someday my Prince, er, perfect notebook will come. Still hasn't, yet I keep buying. I also use the wide rule composition books, besides nice leather embossed ones that are my weakness. Yes! Doodles, writing words on the slant, using different colors of ink, .... all of it!!! You should see my notebooks. And I bet you a million there's 'don't forget milk and eggs' in there somewhere. By the way, to Janet's point… When I was young, I kept notebooks too. Always have. I used paste (yes, paste!) but actually loved the way the pages crinkled and felt thick in my hands later. I would write down favorite poems and or quotes and sayings and paste pictures from magazines that I would cut out which I thought 'went with' the words. I also pasted in (later) movie stubs or tickets from a football game, etc. But in and around it all were scribbled words. Words being the heart and soul of it. Rebecca |
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Kathy Words being the heart and soul of it. |
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Rebecca It is amazing to have this chance to hang out with poets. Even your emails are poetical. These exchanges have brightened my days! (And it's even beautiful and sunny in Seattle!) Kathy, I've been thinking of your post all day. What a lovely thing to say. Truly. Rebecca |
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Betsy
When I buy
notebooks, they stay blank. Writing on scraps of paper is more natural
for me and might be for kids, too. It's amazing how much fresher my
ideas that I've jotted down can be, and they come to me at times when I
don't have time to pull out a notebook. I keep a small notepad in my
purse and I have a number of folders that I can stick these snippets of
ideas in. |
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Rebecca Then all I have to do is write up the fresh ideas. To me, this is the hard part. I always get the ideas and write down snippets of starters and poem titles and themes -- but then the writing of them all. Ah, the writing of them all ...
Rebecca
Kai Dotlich |
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Betsy
I am a bit like a vampire with regard to poetry writing. It's my life blood. I have to write, or I get off-center, cranky, negative, dulled-out. So...if I'm working on a collection, I feel like I've got plenty to bite into. I don't feel worried about my food-supply. Of course, every poem sounds awful when it first comes out, but I've been writing long enough to know that it will go through lots of incarnations before I get that satisfying feeling that I get when a poem really starts to take form.
But,
anyway, as long as I have something to write, I'm happy. I guess that's
why I collect ideas. So I never have to wonder where my next life blood
is coming from. |
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Jane I keep a notebook and jot down ideas that I think might be a poem one day. Today at recess Cassidy got stuck on the monkey bars and felt she couldn't get down. The girls who came to get me to rescue her were thinking about all the things that could happen to Cassidy before we got over to her part of the playground: she could starve to death, a wasp might visit, etc. And I thought I could do a poem about that for the overhead and for our poetry sessions. So I jotted that experience down in my notebook. Jane |
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Janet Poor Cassidy…but she DEFINITELY has something to write about now! Janet |
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Sylvia That reminds me of Shel Silverstein's poem, "Whatif," a great poem to read aloud with one volunteer per line. And a great poem to imitate with a group writing activity. Kids can put a (an anonymous) "whatif" line in a box over a period of several days and then all the lines can be combined into a new list poem and read aloud. No one need know whose "whatif" line is whose, if the worries are sensitive ones. Sylvia
Sylvia M.
Vardell, Ph.D. |
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Marjory HI, What a great conversation so far! I keep coming back to the computer to see what else is being said. As a recently retired teacher I have at least two bookcases worth of poetry books in boxes, waiting for me to find a good use for them. Poetry was always a big part of my classroom life. When working in primary grades, we read poems every morning, at least one new one and several more from our charts, selected by the kids. I also photocopied most of the morning poems so kids had their own poetry books to read. Upper grades, I tended to use poems to introduce topics being studied or as read alouds when we had a shorter morning time.
As a math coach for the last few years, I used many poems to introduce topics or encourage conversation about the math. I had a great time using Georgia's “Where has Poly gon?” with fourth graders. I had kids participating who hadn't opened their mouths in my previous visits to their class. Last year one of my schools had a teacher a day do a poetry read aloud as part of morning announcements during the month of April. The poetry kids wrote during the month was incredible. But as has been said, this doesn't have to happen only in April. Thanks for getting my brain in gear! Margie |
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Deb Wow, Marjory, I hope someone e-mails you asking for these boxes. It would be a wonderful set of resources. I'd be asking but I think others might need or want them even more. If you don't find a home for those books please let me know. Ooohhh those books and what you did with them are inspiring. Deb |
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Jayne Students LOVE poetry. Would you mind sharing the list of all the books you have? I NEED more poetry books! Thanks!!! Jayne |
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Lori This is a list I put together as part of a grant
project. Just keep in mind, poetry seems to go out of print in the
blink of an eye and some are probably not available. |
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Kathy
Thanks for the list, Lori. I also value the recommendations of Daniel Pinkwater and Nancy Pearl on NPR. Kathy |
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Betsy
I forgot
to say that in the second half of my book Conversations with a Poet
(Richard C. Owen Publishers!), I talk about 16 poetry forms. I explain
them, give samples at different grade levels, and offer a bibliography
for each. In the bibliographies, I tell you exactly which poems use the
form I'm focusing on. Many of the poems are by the poets on this
listserv! |
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Sylvia Margie, I love how you write, "I believe this was able to happen because we had poetry at our fingertips and part of our classroom culture." Beautifully put! I'm also enjoying all these poetry + math connections. When I teach my course in poetry for children, I have one module (out of 6) on poetry across the curriculum. It is often one of the most popular topics and gets lots of response. I think teachers, in particular, really appreciate being able to take poetry with them into other areas. Using a poem to link with a science topic or open a social studies lesson is a way to add a bit of leaven to a lesson, I think. We can focus attention on a key concept or idea and combine two distinct areas-- and link left brain/right brain learning! Plus, the focus is not usually on analyzing the poem (as we sometimes think we must do when using poetry in reading/language arts), but rather on enjoying the poem and connecting with it in some way. I think this will be the focus of my next poetry resource book, so I'd love any input on what teachers and librarians want to know about using poetry across the curriculum... Sylvia |
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Betsy I just remembered my book Math Poetry, speaking of across the curriculum. It just received a Teacher's Choice Award (Learning Magazine)--I was very happy. I introduce all kinds of math poetry, explain how I present it in the classroom, and show lots of student samples. I also explain to kids how to write "mathema-tickles," so they can write their own poems like the ones in my book Mathematicles.
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Cynthia I'm VERY excited about the verse biographies that are being published, and would love to know, too, what people are doing with them. I haven't done anything yet except jump up and down while showing them to people. Cynthia |
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Sylvia Cynthia, I SO agree! I love this new trend (verse biography) and wrote about it in my upcoming (November) "Everyday Poetry" column for Book Links magazine (published by ALA). Here's an excerpt:
Individual verse biographies
Fortune's
Bones: The Manumission Requiem The Freedom Business Carmen T. Bernier-Grand has also used the verse format for her biographical works, César; ¡Sí, Se Puede! Yes, We Can! about activist César Chavez and Frida: ¡Viva la vida! Long Live Life! about artist Frida Kahlo. Add to this roster of innovators Margarita Engle whose recent verse biography, The Surrender Tree, features Cuba’s legendary healer Rosa la Bayamesa, told from multiple points of view during several wars for Cuba’s independence. Older readers can research primary source documents to help them visualize and conceptualize historical times. One excellent resource is Jackdaws Publications (http://www.jackdaw.com/), a source of full-size facsimiles of actual letters, diaries, telegrams, newspapers, study maps and many other authentically reproduced documents from various eras. Create displays to showcase biographical poems alongside these contextual artifacts and realia. Weaving biography and poetry together makes sense. For poetry lovers, it’s a way to absorb history, and for all readers, the poetic format provides a unique entrée into stories of people of the past. Just FYI. Sylvia
Sylvia M. Vardell, Ph.D. http://www.poetryforchildren.blogspot.com |
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Lori Our middle and high school readers having some difficulty find novels in verse rewarding, less intimidating and downright addictive.
Lori |
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Janet
I have a couple of favorite novels in verse. Do you know April Halprin Wayland's Girl Coming in for a
Best, Janet |
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Lori
No, Janet, I don't but I am forwarding this to our wondrous middle
school Lori |
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Maureen
Some favorite novels in verse:
Carver by Marilyn Nelson (I love anything by Marilyn Nelson including A Wreath for Emitt Till) Locomotion by Jacqueline Woodson Witness and Out of the Dust by Karen Hesse The Killing of Mr. Chippendale and other books by Mel Glenn
If anyone wants a fuller list, let me know. It's somewhere here, I know it is......
Maureen Picard Robins
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Lori Keep those lists coming! Lori |
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Sylvia OK, you asked for it. Here's my annotated list of verse novels (some of which are really more appropriate for high school kids). It's a few years old now, so there are some new titles to add, but it will get you started.
Sylvia NOVELS IN VERSE OR PARTIAL VERSE
Carvell, Marlene. Who Will Tell My Brother?
Clifton, Lucille. The Times They Used To Be Cofer,
Judith Ortiz. The Year of Our Revolution
Cormier, Robert. Frenchtown Summer
Corrigan, Eireann. You Remind Me of You: A Poetry Memoir Creech,
Sharon. Love That Dog
Crist-Evans, Craig. Moon Over
Tennessee: A Boy's Civil War Journal Field,
Terri.
After the Death of Anna Gonzales Frost,
Helen. Keesha’s House Glenn,
Mel. Jump Ball: A Season in Poems Glenn,
Mel. Foreign Exchange: A Mystery in Poems Glenn,
Mel. Who Killed Mr. Chippendale? A Mystery in Poems Glenn,
Mel. Split Image: A Portrait in Poems Glenn,
Mel. Taking of Room 114: A Hostage Drama in Poems Grimes,
Nikki.
Bronx Masquerade
Grover,
Lorie Ann. Loose Threads
Herrera, Felipe. Crashboomlove
Herrick, Steven. The Spangled Drongo: A Verse Novel
Herrick, Steven. A Place Like This Hesse,
Karen. Aleutian Sparrow Hesse,
Karen. Out of the Dust Hesse,
Karen. Witness
Johnson, Angela. Running Back to Ludie
Koertge, Ron. The Brimstone Journals
Koertge, Ron. Shakespeare Bats Cleanup Lynch,
Chris. Whitechurch Nelson,
Marilyn. Carver, a Life in Poems Rylant,
Cynthia. Soda Jerk Sones,
Sonya. Stop Pretending: What Happened When My Big Sister Went Crazy
Sones,
Sonya. What My Mother Doesn't Know Testa,
Maria. Almost Forever Testa,
Maria. Becoming Joe Dimaggio Turner,
Ann Warren. A Lion's Hunger: Poems of First Love Turner,
Ann Warren. Learning to Swim: A Memoir
Wayland, April Halprin. Girl Coming in for a Landing Wild,
Margaret. Jinx
Williams, Vera. Amber Was Brave, Essie Was Smart Wolff,
Virginia
Euwer. Make Lemonade Wolff,
Virginia
Euwer. True Believer
Woodson, Jacqueline. Locomotion Wong,
Janet.
Minn and Jake
REFERENCES FYI Sylvia
M. Vardell, Ph.D. |
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Lori I am a K-12 Coach working out of curriculum department... I asked and all I can say is, oh, goody, goody! Thanks, Sylvia. Lori |
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Yvonne Here's another idea. All cultures have poetry. Kids love the poems from various cultures, and they love learning about different cultures. One of the fifth graders I mentor loves reading poetry of the Hawaiian culture. We read both the Hawaiian words and the English translation. The Hawaiian culture and language is filled with poetry because the culture is based on an oral tradition. Stories of the culture were passed down from one generation to another through poetry and stories. Also, Chinese poetry is filled with metaphor like the Chinese language. Have any of you read, “How to Eat a Poem” by Eve Merriam? It is below. just in case. It's juicy.
How to Eat a Poem by Eve Merriam
Don't be polite. Bite in. Pick it up with your fingers and lick the juice that may run down your chin. It is ready and ripe now, whenever you are. You do not need a knife or fork or spoon or plate or napkin or tablecloth.
For there is no core or stem or rind or pit or seed or skin to throw away.
Yvonne |
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Sylvia I'm so glad the topic of CULTURE has come up. I am very excited to see so many poets of color writing for young people and so much multicultural poetry all around. I'm sure you all have seen Janet's first two collections, Good Luck Gold and Suitcase of Seaweed (just reprinted!)-- two of my favorites! And Betsy has anthologized Night is Gone, Day is Still Coming: Stories and Poems by American Indian Teens along with authors Annette Pina Ochoa, Traci L. Gourdine, and Simon J. Ortiz--also amazing. And of course there's the wonderful work of Nikki Grimes, Pat Mora, Francisco Alarcon, Naomi Shihab Nye, Charles R. Smith, and Carole Boston Weatherford--to name just a few. Their work pushes poetry into new areas and draws new kid readers, too. Check your shelves for their poetry books, too... Sylvia Sylvia
Vardell, Ph.D. |
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Jayne I am just loving this discussion...so many terrific
ideas shared. Thanks everyone! Jayne |
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Janet Thanks, Yvonne, for posting Eve Merriam's "How to Eat a Poem"...I do love that poem! Riffing off that poem, several months ago I started writing a picture boo manuscript called How to Feed a Poem (later changed to How to Catch a Poem). I put it through a half-dozen drafts while I stayed at Rebecca Kai Dotlich's house when I was in Indiana for a Ball State University conference and an elementary school visit. Rebecca is the ultimate collaborator: she's done books together with Pat Lewis and Jane Yolen, and I really enjoyed doing assemblies with her. In our assemblies we did a "compare and contrast" of our approaches to writing and our approaches to specific subjects. The highlight of each assembly was a quick-write of a poem on easels in front of our audience (using words that they had suggested). Here's a bit from my work-in-progress How to Catch a Poem (about halfway into the manuscript):
You'll find the best poems in your own backyard under a rock or in the corner of a closet at your grandmother's house. At school in the dark of a desk or next to your feet on the bus.
Catch a poem And bring it home. It will be loyal for life. Janet |
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Rebecca Thanks Janet, it was my honor and great joy to work with both Pat Lewis and Jane on poetry collections. I learned the secret of why they publish so many books. Want to know? They write. Morning, noon and night. Well, Pat doesn't much at night. But all day long they toil. For the most part. They are both very dedicated with a nose-to- the-grindstone ethic that few must have. I learned that I must've been a turtle in my past life. Rebecca
Rebecca
Kai Dotlich |
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Sylvia I can't wait to see this whole book, Janet! I just love poems about reading, books, and poetry and I think teachers and librarians do, too. It's a great way to kick off a study, discussion, or sharing of poetry. And these poems make great visuals, too-- posters on the door to welcome kids in, etc. I'm sure you all know Pat's collections, Please Bury Me in the Library and The Bookworm’s Feast, for example-- full of book-word celebrations poems. Or Good Books, Good Times, Good Rhymes, Good Times; or Wonderful Words--anthologies gathered by Lee Bennett Hopkins. Or look at poet Joyce Sidman's Web site for a downloadable bookmark with a wonderful "This Book" poem: http://www.joycesidman.com/bookmark.html Any other examples we should mention? Sylvia
Sylvia M. Vardell, Ph.D. Texas Woman's University |
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Rebecca
Pat's collections, Please Bury Me in the Library and The Bookworm’s Feast, for example-- full of book-word celebrations poems. WONDERFUL books! They should be on everyone's shelf. Rebecca
Rebecca
Kai Dotlich |
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Yvonne An interesting anecdote from the classroom.... A colleague had a student who stumped her because nothing she did seemed to interest him. So, we chatted about this kid. I suggested she read poems from the Hispanic culture. This is what happened according to my colleague. She started reading, this kid who was in the back of the sit down area, started moving closer and closer to her. When she got done, he said, "Thanks, Mrs. ___ that was really good." From then on, he participated and was engaged. Kids need to see themselves and their culture in the book/poems/articles, etc. they read. At the same time, when reading poems from other cultures, the mainstream U.S. American kids become enriched as well. Oh, when reading poems from different cultures, the topic of dialect always comes up as well. Hooray for cultural diversity and dialects, too! I love all the various dialects throughout this country, and the world. Check out this link: http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets_by_nationality.html Yvonne |
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Janet YES! Poetry is revered in so many other cultures... One interesting thing about Chinese poetry is that simple poems were used to teach children to read in the Tang Dynasty (see the now-OP book Maples in the Mist by Minfong Ho). Janet |
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Betsy As far as learning to read and write goes, there's something about a poem that can be so much easier for a kid to get their minds and hearts around. When poems are put on pocket charts and the whole class recites them, a kid can join in and start learning what reading is all about.
There's
lots of white space. And writing poems, especially for kids who are having trouble in the upper grades, can be just the thing they need. Again, poems can be short. I remember, at the juvenile hall, one boy said he didn't have anything to write about and he kept talking about it out loud. I could tell he wasn't going to pick up the pencil. I asked the librarian who was in the room to write down what he was saying because it sounded like a poem. When he looked at his words written on the paper...I wish you could have seen the smile on his face. As I recall, he said very loudly, "I wrote a poem!" Poems are magical in some unexplainable way. I think they touch a part of a person that's inaccessible in any other way. I've remembered things from my childhood that I could not remember no matter how hard I tried. I think it touches kids this way, too. They can express themselves in ways that aren't possible any other way.
Betsy |
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Marilyn Good morning, folks. I'm dropping in for a little while before I go out. What Betsy said about poems being magical is true for me as well. I keep wondering if I write poetry with a different part of my brain from the bit that writes prose. Certainly the images come from some other area, possibly the place where dreams originate. Does that make sense? Marilyn |
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Betsy
I feel
it's so important to have poetry reading and writing in the classroom on
a regular basis because of this magical quality. I know as a kid, I was
fairly lost in some ways, especially as a teenager, but also as a kid,
and I was looking for some life raft. Poetry was part of that life
raft. And...humorous poetry could lighten things up in just the way I
needed. |
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Rebecca
Poetry. How I adore rhymes that waterfall off the tongue. Good rhyme. On the nose, on the button rhyme. That's why children memorize prayers, nursery rhymes and song lyrics easily -- the rhyming words and patterns become mind clues. But writing in rhyme is hard. It's an art form, like any creative art form. It's music and word art woven together. It takes time and patience and lots of trial and error. I think we do children an injustice if we don't remind them that one has to practice, to work at it, no different than baseball or dance, if they prefer to write in rhyme. That's not saying they shouldn't! It's saying they need to know it will take time and practice. It will take dipping into the rhyming dictionary and 'trying on' different rhyming words, or word pairs, at the ends of lines. It will take reading poems. Lots of them. And it will take finding the joy in words. And this doesn't just go for students. This goes for writers, too, who are embarking on their own poetry writing journey. So at times, I'll begin a poem with an intriguing rhyme I want to use. Not always, not even often, but at times. Like 'introduce,' and 'moose.' It's a rhyme I haven't seen used much, so I might challenge myself to use those words in a poem. The two words might end up being at the end of the lines, ("The birds in the forest sing to introduce/ their good friends owl, and mouse and moose",) or one might be used in the line internally. ("To introduce the world of moose ...".) It's one way to begin a poem. Just one. There are so many! Anyone else curious about process? About how a poem begins? Or about rhyming, in general? I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts. Poets, teachers, all ... ? Rebecca
Rebecca
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Marilyn Interesting comments, Rebecca. One of my favorite quotes about rhyme is from X.J. Kennedy: “You intend to write a poem about dogs, say, and poodle is the first word you’re going to find a rhyme for. You might want to talk about police dogs, Saint Bernards, and terriers, but your need for a rhyme will lead you to noodle and strudel. The darned poem will make you forget about dogs and write about food instead.” When you're writing rhymes, it's best to be flexible. Even when you really are determined to write that poem about dogs, you need to know that though you might love a rhyme, it might not be the RIGHT rhyme, it might not work. So you have to fiddle around, come up with other rhymes, use a rhyming dictionary, etc. till you find good rhymes that aren't forced, that make your point, that are appropriate for the type of poem and audience for whom you're writing. Marilyn |
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Rebecca Oh Marilyn, I love that quote of Joe Kennedy's. He's absolutely right. Rhyme can often dictate your direction. So be open to it, yes. (Unless of course you must write a poem about XYZ for a specific anthology or topic.) I once started off writing a poem about ice cream, but it ended up about my grandfather. Hmm, noting the hour we are writing I think poets must be night owls. :) Rebecca
Rebecca
Kai Dotlich |
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Kathy
Here are some winning poems that my students have stumbled upon ...
Little Abigail And
The Beautiful Pony
(This is a good story Kathy |
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Rebecca I have been thinking about the many creative ways you wonderful teachers are using poetry in your classroom --- and it prompted me to get up out of bed and ask this: Is there a poem that you wish were written that has not been? A poem you wish you could get your hands on to share with your students, but there is no such poem? What would it be? Rebecca
Rebecca
Kai Dotlich |
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Pat Good morning, listservers. Good to be among you again. May I comment on the issue of rhyming? I believe sound is every bit as important as sense, which is why many of my poems rhyme. But children are notoriously bad at rhyming. It's not because they lack a talent for it, though that may be the case. It's because they don't take the time (8 hours a day, seven days a week?) to find good rhymes. AND THEY SHOULDN'T! They are too busy living life, which is exactly what they should be doing at an early age. The genius of children is not rhyme but metaphor, that is, coming up with spontaneous, natural metaphors/similes that are the envy of every adult poet. But research shows that they will become like all the rest of us adults when they lose that ability at the age of 11 or 12. So for now, in their youth, just encourage them to write--with or without line breaks. Discourage rhyming and don't encourage them when they write bad rhymes by telling them how wonderful their words are or giving them prizes or publishing their work in the annual school magazine. I realize that is very strongly put, but it's also strongly felt. Cheers,
Pat J. Patrick Lewis |
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Rebecca The genius of children is not rhyme but metaphor, that is, coming up with spontaneous, natural metaphors/similes that are the envy of every adult poet. How true, Pat. A perfect example of this, for those of you who might not know, is Barbara Juster Esbensen's book, A Celebration of Bees, which takes its title from her son's on-the-spot metaphor. He had been playing outside and saw a 'bunch of bees' around a hive nearby, and he ran into the house yelling, "Mom, there's a celebration of bees out there!" Or something very, very close to that. I believe Karla Kuskin writes about a metaphor she used in a poem when she was very young about flowers. Children are so innocent and natural language and creativity just seem to flow from their brains without second guessing themselves. Rebecca |
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Lori I coach now, but my last years in the classroom with were with a wondrous group of poets. For two years, we wallowed and waddled together but I kept putting them off on writing rhyming poetry. At the end of the two years they WERE begging to write poetry that rhymed and so we spent a short unit of identify rhyme patterns and playing around with short rhyming poetry. They taught me this, NEVER say never. They wrote meaningful pieces, though short, with rhymes that supported the poem and were not forced. That said, I simply never had a group like these kids when it came to poetry and would not have tried it with any other group. Lori |
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Rebecca Sylvia mentioned… ... anthologies gathered by Lee Bennett Hopkins. And speaking of -- could there be anyone more to thank that Lee Bennett Hopkins for bringing poetry, good poetry, to children, and to the world of childhood. Rebecca
Rebecca
Kai Dotlich |
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Betsy Hi, everyone, I feel like I'm late for the party and it's only 6:30 in the morning here in California. I've been eating up the posts that collected while I was sleeping! I want to put in a word for teenagers. Most of the poems I put in my teen-written anthologies do not rhyme. Teenage poetry can knock your socks and shoes off because they are so fresh and brutally honest. One boy told me when he was in college and looked back at his poem in my book, he realized he didn't even know how close he was to some truth and how much of himself he'd put out there. He was just writing how he saw it. Even in college, he was a lot more self-conscious. Anyway, back to rhyme. All it takes is a little encouragement and a few good examples, and kids of any age will put rhyming aside. They see that they can say more easily what they mean to say. Sometimes the natural rhymers keep rhyming and that's fine. And of course, some forms of poetry require rhyming, such as limericks. That's different. Then rhyming dictionaries can be introduced so that kids can see that the first rhyme that comes into their heads is usually not the interesting one. cheers, |
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Pat and kids of any age will put rhyming aside. They see that they can say more easily what they mean to say. All well put, Betsy. Illustrators don't tell children that they must draw inside the lines. Poets shouldn't tell children to put themselves inside the box of rhymes and write their way out it. The first rule of illustration, Victoria Chess once told me, is "Break borders." Which ought to be the mantra of child poets as well. Pat J. Patrick Lewis |
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Janet I agree about metaphor: yes, when I visit schools and write with kids, I lead them in a metaphor/simile exercise and they come up with terrific things. One of my favorites, from a 1st or 2nd grader: “My father is a carpet. My mother walks all over him.” (The sad part was that this kid didn’t say this in a sassy tone of voice…and teachers nodded knowingly after he spoke.) But I disagree about discouraging rhyme: while I teach kids to use repetition and rhythm and discuss free-verse, I also do teach rhyme and off-rhyme. Why? Because some kids LOVE rhyme, and coming up with a rhyme pair (good or bad) gives them a sense of accomplishment and makes writing fun. Why do most kids like to shoot at a basketball hoop instead of just throwing the ball up in the air? They’re not very good at scoring, in elementary school…but still they try, and enjoy trying. Janet |
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Betsy Janet, I'd love to know what you teach them about rhyme and off-rhyme. I agree that teaching off-rhyme is an excellent idea and takes away some of the forced rhyming, but can you elaborate just a bit? Betsy |
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Janet I tell them very little, which is why it’s extremely gratifying when some of them then use off-rhyme (and of course beam when I point out that they used it well). Depending on the age group, I tell them some or all of this: You can call it off-rhyme, near-rhyme, or slant-rhyme Emily Dickinson was the Queen of Off-Rhyme (soul/all; port/chart) I show the example of my poem “Gently Down the Stream” (path/glass) I talk about how sometimes I accidentally rhyme (I might write “wise”…and later will happen to use “eyes”) but if I don’t want exact rhyme, I’ll change it (wise/eye) Janet |
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Joann I agree about metaphor: yes, when I visit schools and write with kids, I lead them in a metaphor/simile exercise and they come up with terrific things. One of my favorites, from a 1st or 2nd grader: “My father is a carpet. My mother walks all over him.” I also visit schools to help students write poetry, and I'm always amazed by their fresh, surprising imagery. One of my all-time favorites: "A dolphin is as gray as fog, and it sounds like shoes squeaking down the hall." (Stephen, first grade)
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Pat Why do most kids like to shoot at a basketball hoop instead of just throwing the ball up in the air? They’re not very good at scoring, in elementary school…but still they try, and enjoy trying. Back on (momentarily). I understand completely, Janet, but we don't call third graders professional basketball players just because they are trying. So why call them poets? We don't call kids who are learning to play the piano pianists. At least not yet. But for some reason we believe that anyone who has committed a line to blank paper should be called a poet.
J. Patrick Lewis |
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Cynthia Well said. Cynthia |
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Deb We don't call kids who are learning to play the piano pianists. Doesn't it depend on your definition of "pianist"? As a former piano teacher (20 years) all people who are learning to play the piano are in fact pianists. They are emerging into being performers but they already are pianists. If we define it narrowly to only include truly gifted musicians in their discipline that being in this case 'piano playing' such as Van Cliburn, Vladimir Horowitz, Bruce Hornsby, Harry Connick, Jr., Andre Watts, and the myriad of others who are truly gifted musicians in the field of piano playing and performance then we truly exclude those learners who may only want to learn to play 3 hymns for church. It is using their knowledge about music and piano for their own purposes that one becomes a 'pianist'... and musician. It is not how complete their knowledge is that important... or how well they perform... or how gifted they are... for me, it is the trying, the using, and the goals they have that are important. Just like in literacy, too narrow a definition of literacy narrows what is considered to be success, excludes all those people/learners whose language and life experiences differ from the teachers they have. If this is unacceptable in schools (as most of us would agree to some extent) then why do this no-no in other domains such as piano playing/music? Deb kind of cantankerous today... sorry. |
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Marilyn This interests me. Why DO we call everyone who writes a poem a poet, but we don't call every person learning to play piano a pianist? Obviously, if someone makes a living writing poetry (people make a living writing poetry???), that person's job title is poet. And if someone writes and writes a lot of poems, we might call that person a poet--and then decide whether he or she is a good one. But I do wonder at this label being used in classrooms: today we'll all become poets. It gets back to the question I always ask: How do we encourage kids, but not overstate? How do we inject reality without splashing cold water in a child's face? A lot of schools "publish" students' poetry. There is nothing wrong with that--and a lot that's right. But I get concerned that kids get the wrong idea that they can then publish in professional mags and get paid. They already think that writers make a lot of dough (maybe because J.K. Rowling does). I think that the question there is really how do we encourage love for writing for its own sake, and not for wealth, fame, glory, which most writers never get anyway? Marilyn
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Sylvia How interesting! I always think of this as "kids who write poetry," rather than "child poets." A "POET" is someone who writes poetry for a living, whose very identity is tied to the creation of poetry. Since I deal more with adult students than child students, this comes up when we try to pigeonhole literature in various genres. For example, is the writer of a rhyming picture book a poet? Usually, I say no... For example, Dr. Seuss was gifted in many ways-- word play, humor, child-like appreciation for nonsense in word and image, but I would not say he was a poet. I think it's great to celebrate the many ways that rhyme, wordplay, verse, and language are used creatively by many people-- adults and kids-- but it's not all poetry. Kids are smart-- they can understand the difference. Sylvia |
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Deb I actually consider someone who is moved to write poetry and does act on this drive to be a poet. Not all writers are published and earn a living writing. Sometimes I might consider them closet writers or undiscovered (by choice or not). However, what elevates someone from just fooling around with something to that lofty title of 'poet' in the sense of earning a living. I agree on Dr. Seuss but I can also see the other position... If we take the pictures away do the words still conger up a meaningful - albeit different in many ways - text? It does rhyme... tells a story (goofy mostly but still a story)... works better than most for the poetry angle (loosely speaking). Again, I don't consider him a poet. I do consider Shel Silverstein a poet and he is one... but imagine illustrations to go with each stanza of one of his poems and lo and behold we have something close to a Dr. Seuss book! The boundaries are really, really fuzzy! I guess I just find it difficult to narrowly define life for kids. We should be helping them unfold the world and bring down the walls that divide and separate us from our world. Yes, I know this is lofty and idealistic... Fun discussion! Deb |
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Marilyn I think you've nailed it, Deb, when you ask what elevates someone from just fooling around to the title of "poet." I don't think that earning a living makes someone earn that title. But writing "seriously"--in other words, writing a lot and not just fooling around, whether or not you can get the stuff published, does, in my book, make someone a poet. Marilyn |
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Betsy I've also noticed a shift in regard to kids' attitudes about publishing their work. I've been compiling anthologies since 1998. Some of the teenagers who make it into my books nowadays send me their other manuscripts and want advice on how to get them published. When I tell them to go to writing conferences, join SCBWI if they're writing for children or YA, form a writing group, take workshops or classes in writing particular genres, they actually listen to me and thank me. I explain that it's like any other profession--there are skills to be learned and it takes a lot of writing to hone those skills.
Betsy |
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Betsy Every single morning, I walk to an elementary school around the corner. I get ideas, interact with the kids, visit classrooms, help in the kindergarten, talk to kids about writing, etc. I'm the Constantly Visiting Author. It helps me keep up to date with the emotions and details of kids' lives today.
So...I'm
going to walk to school but I won't stay this morning. I'll be back in
a flash on the listserv. |
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Richard Betsy and all, Your daily trek to the elementary school sounds refreshing and stimulating. I liked your comment: I get ideas, interact with the kids, visit classrooms, help in the kindergarten, talk to kids about writing, etc. I'm the Constantly Visiting Author. It helps me keep up to date with the emotions and details of kids' lives today. I wonder if the rest of the panel have favorite spots they visit regularly or if they engage in regular activities to gather information and inspiration for the work. Richard |
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Janet The Internet is my Muse. Just surfing the Web, I’ve learned about the Palouse giant worm and the world’s smallest snake (both of which will go into Minn and Jake #3, which I am writing now). I do go on walks, but mainly from my walks I get…mosquito bites. I think inspiration comes from being in the right frame of mind, being curious, actively looking. Look around the most boring room and you will still find something. A crack in the ceiling…hmmm…. what kind of creature is in the attic? Janet |
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Rebecca being curious That's it for me. And sitting in the chair and writing. Even when I don't feel like it. AND looking through books -- that's my walk :) Looking through books gives me inspiration. Walking, like Janet, gives me mosquito bites and a sweaty forehead :). But like Betsy, when I listen to children talk I do get ideas, for sure, but more for dialogue in a few picture books I'm working on. Talking to children hasn't really inspired me for individual poems that much. Remembering what children like to DO, like to SEE, like to WONDER and DREAM about, even have NIGHTMARES about, are SCARED of, etc. That inspires me. So my 'place' is more in my mind and in books. Rebecca
Rebecca
Kai Dotlich |
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Marilyn I get a lot of inspiration from nature, so I like to walk around parks, preserves, wild places, zoos, etc. and observe things. But, to be honest, everything can provide an inspiration. I think that we writers keep all of our senses open and our "idea antennae" up much of the time. Marilyn |
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Pat Over the years, I have written a long series of (adult) poems on Russia, which I could never have done had I not lived in and visited the country twelve times. Occasionally, I also benefit from a foray into nature for my children's verse. But mostly, I am a chair-bound poet, using the lives and histories of the subjects themselves--black Americans, women, recently extinct species, famous monuments, other people's books and poems--as inspiration for my own work. Research provides plenty of inspiration on its own. But as Thomas Edison said on another topic, writing is mostly perspiration anyway. My muse is usually pretty busy primping in front of the mirror or visiting the relatives to be bothered singing sweetly in my ear. Pat |
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Sylvia May I also plug the library? I love to spend time in my local public library branch, which is always full of people (I live in Dallas) and has the most helpful staff. I go for the DVDs, their poetry section, their Internet connection, and the home-away-from-home work environment. I also love to help unsuspecting kids and parents find the books they don't know they're looking for (I'm a busybody!). :-) Sylvia |
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Betsy Haven’t yet left. I'm wondering what teachers need regarding the teaching, reading, writing of poetry? What would help? Where are the gaps?
Betsy |
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Richard And I am curious about how much time teachers are able to allocate to poetry--sharing and writing as well as teaching about forms. Richard |
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Kathy I would say that teachers "need" their imaginations lit about the possibilities around poetry. The teachers who have shared on this conversation, and the connections the poets have shared in classrooms, are so great. Sometimes teachers don't see the potential to meet curricular requirements in inspired ways. Kathy |
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Renee Sometimes teachers don't see the potential to meet curricular requirements in inspired ways. Kathy, your last sentence is so very true. My heart breaks these days when I see how married teachers are becoming to their programs, lock, stock, and barrel, when there are so many creative ways to meet the requirements that are being left by the wayside. I used to do all of my rhyming, phonics, phonemic awareness, and some spelling through poetry, without ignoring the love and appreciation of the poem itself. Renee -- who is now teaching Art at three elementary schools to K, 1st, and 2nd graders, and had the odd experience yesterday of teaching in three 2nd grade classrooms that looked and were arranged EXACTLY alike. wow. Renee |
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Rebecca I would say that teachers "need" their imaginations lit about the possibilities around poetry. Perfect point, Kathy. It leads me to something I feel very strongly about. Imagination. It is characteristic of children from the time they are small to take inanimate objects in their hands and talk to them; play with them and imagine them being real. To personify the whole world is natural for children. Poetry, and personification in poetry, is this same natural play. So it never seems to fail to give students the freedom to choose something from a nature walk or a treasure table and write about an object as if it were real; a leaf, a rock, a marble, an ant, an old pair of glasses, coins, etc. Or to look out the window and choose wind, rain, a cloud to attach human qualities to like whine, groan, wink, weep, etc. This is just one small, very small way in which we can combine both imagination and poetry in the classroom and beyond. Rebecca
Rebecca
Kai Dotlich |
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Betsy Here's how I look at change: If I just start by doing one tiny thing differently, then I see the benefits, and I try something else. I don't have to change everything at once.
With
regard to poetry, I think next time I talk at a conference, I'll suggest
introducing one math lesson with a poem, or one science unit with a
poem, and see what happens. Just one. Like an experiment. I love that
word, experiment. |
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Sylvia Please let me put in a plug for Betsy's terrific resource book, Conversations with a Poet. I wrote about it in my April 9 posting on my blog (PoetryforChildren) when discussing her marvelous poems for the 100th day of school. Check it out: http://poetryforchildren.blogspot.com/search?q=franco Sylvia M. Vardell, Ph.D. |
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Linda I am a bit of a non-traditional fourth grade teacher (in spite of the fact I will be 59 on Friday). We have the usual “poetry month” in April with time allocated in the writing program just in April. I guess I march to my own drummer and poetry is a part of my curriculum from day 1. My boy writers get hooked on Love That dog by Sharon Creech, and so do the girls. We use poetry in all subject areas. I try not to use the fill in the blank poems that you see on the Internet but let the children explore. They explore poetry by walking outside and closely observing a flower, a weed, a tree, an ant. We list and write. I have a boy in my class who came in hating writing. Today I received an email from his mother about how he feels he is a talented writer and found his home/talent in poetry. I am getting off of the subject a bit, but I feel it is important because poetry lets a child feel important. They have control of what they are writing. It truly belongs to them. In my book, at fourth grade, there isn’t any right or wrong poem in the world. Poetry is their hearts speaking, not mine. To be a talented writer of prose, you need to be a poet. A poet sees beyond the black and white. A poet sees beyond the primary or secondary colors. The poet sees colors that were never invented. We need to let our students create those colors of their universe with poetry. Linda P.S. Janet Wong was a speaker at our spring symposium (National Writing Project@ Rider University, NJ) and everyone loved her! She’s great! She also graciously did a presentation to our fourth grade class and inspired many students to become writers. Thank you, Janet. |
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Betsy poetry lets a child feel important. They have control of what they are writing. It truly belongs to them. In my book, at fourth grade, there isn’t any right or wrong poem in the world. Poetry is their hearts speaking, not mine
The
children in your class are lucky. I've felt this with children and
poetry, too. |
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Yvonne Poetry is like art; helps make connections and see thing in a fresh way. Yvonne |
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Janet Thank you, Linda, for your kind words! It was easy to inspire your students because it was the end of the school year and you’d already done nine months of great work getting them excited about writing. One thing I want to mention about Linda is that she is experienced at applying for grants. I visited her school thanks to a grant she received. I think teachers should get together and have grant-writing parties! Spend two hours applying for as many grants as you can. Don’t worry about them being perfect; take the shotgun approach. Send a bunch out…and who knows? Best,
Janet |
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Lori
One word of caution...depending on your school, grants can be hurtful.
Seems damnable doesn’t it? As a public school on a reservation, we
receive lots of Federal dollars. Grants can hurt us as the government
will take away funding to match, so we end up breaking even
except...grants often are restrictive in terms of spending, as well they
should be, but the funds we lose are discretionary. I really do advise
checking in with your principal or grant writer (we have one on staff)
before applying. We have had substantial book grants up until this year
(thanks, George W.), and we did this through an outside agency. They got
the cash and gave us all the books I ordered. Bizarre world, this
school finance thing. |
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Janet Thanks, Lori, for the warning about grants! I never imagined that a grant might jeopardize federal funding. Oh, my— Janet |
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Lori Neither did I, until I moved to the district office. As I said, school finance is a strange little world. Lori |
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Jayne As a reading specialist in an elementary school (grades K-6), I do an entire poetry unit throughout the year in fourth grade. Every Friday afternoon we also hold a Poetry Cafe....where students are free to read their own poetry, poems from other authors, etc. The kids LOVE it. We treat it like an open mike night in a cafe.....dim lights, low music in the background...and every now and then...table cloths and snacks. The students BEG me to continue it from year to year...however time is an issue. I have found through this cafe that reluctant writers and readers share...everyone shares...and NO ONE is forced to share! Jayne |
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Jayne PS I also forgot to add that at the end of the year, I have each student in the fourth grade class choose his/her favorite poem (their own writing) and I copy it and bind it for each student, the school library, the classroom teacher (for the classroom library) and other school personnel who would like a copy. The kids are SO PROUD! Jayne |
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Rebecca Every Friday afternoon we also hold a Poetry Cafe....where students are free to read their own poetry, poems from other authors, etc. We treat it like an open mike night in a cafe.....dim lights, low music in the background...and every now and then...table cloths and snacks NOW THIS SOUNDS GREAT. NO WONDER THEY LOVE IT. I LOVE THE TABLECLOTHS AND SNACKS IDEA. :)
Rebecca
Kai Dotlich |
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Betsy Every Friday afternoon we also hold a Poetry Cafe....where students are free to read their own poetry, poems from other authors, etc. I love the regularity of it, the anticipation, the
importance it places on poetry writing and reading. |
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Joan Janet, thanks for letting me know about this conversation, and, Richard, thanks for hosting it. Marilyn kindly invited me to participate in this year's ALA Poetry Blast and what an incredible evening! It was such a pleasure to meet both Marilyn and Sylvia there, see and hear Pat, and splash around in a sea of poetry. Hello to Rebecca . . . and Betsy, I hope our poetry paths will converge sometime soon--we are both in California. I love your thinking, Jayne! How everyone must look forward to Fridays and the Poetry Cafe! It gives them an important opportunity to play with the oral aspect of poetry. When I do poetry writing workshops and encourage students to share their work, there are always some who are very eager to do so and others who are quite shy about it. But the more practice they get the easier it is. Nothing like the taste of delicious words on your tongue. Or as Edward Hirsch would say, "When I recite a poem . . . I become its speaker and let its verbal music move through me as if the poem is a score and I am its instrumentalist, its performer." (His book How to Read a Poem and Fall in Love with Poetry is always inspiring.) I think everything you learn about poetry enhances whatever kind of writing you do. And I agree with what Yvonne said about poetry being like art. Simonides said "Poetry is vocal painting as painting is silent poetry." Cheers,
Joan Bransfield Graham |
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Sylvia It was great to connect with YOU this summer, too, Joan. And I so agree with you about the pleasures of the ORAL dimensions of poetry. It's one of the parts that children really like best-- they love to yell and shout and sing and whisper-- and poetry is a way to channel those energies. Unfortunately, much of their school day is spent being quiet and much of the curriculum is focused on the written word only (and silent reading), so poetry often gets squeezed out. But it only takes a few minutes to re-inject playfulness and participation through poetry! Note: Shameless self promotion follows.... That's the whole focus of my book, Poetry Aloud Here-- sharing ideas for celebrating the read aloud, participatory nature of poetry. Readers here might enjoy my list of strategies for getting kids involved: Ten Strategies for Sharing Poetry Out Loud 1. MODELING: The adult reads the poem aloud 2. UNISON: Everyone reads the poem together at the same time 3. REFRAIN: Children join in on a repeated line, stanza or word 4. MOVEMENT: Unison reading with motions or gestures 5. CALL AND RESPONSE: Two groups read alternating (not simultaneous) lines or stanzas 6. GROUPS: Multiple groups read various lines or stanzas 7. SOLOS: Individuals read lines alone 8. TWO VOICES: Two people read two parts sometimes with simultaneous, but differing lines 9. CANON: Read poems in two alternating groups with staggered beginnings 10. SINGING: Sing poems by setting them to familiar tunes Of course there are more details and examples in the book!
Sylvia M. Vardell, Ph.D.
Texas Woman's University |
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Rebecca A nod to Joan Graham for slipping in the door and saying hello, and for all her great comments on poetry. Do check out her innovative books, Splish Splash and Flicker Flash. Rebecca
Rebecca
Kai Dotlich |
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Michele Another (fairly easy) way to inject some poetry into a school site is to offer a poetry contest. I organized this project two years in a row at my elementary school. It gave teachers a good excuse to do a formal poetry exercise in their classrooms. I also let teachers know that if it didn’t fit into their curriculum, they could send a poetry assignment for homework. But, the teachers who did it as a whole-class project seemed to have a lot of fun with it. Some even let their students illustrate the final products or cut them into shapes (like kites). One year, I had each teacher send me the top ten from their classrooms. The next year I had them send everything, then I culled them down into about ten per classroom. In that way, the final list of poems was about 100 long. Then, I broke the poems down into small packets of about 10 poems each (most poems were very short and quick to read); I photocopied everything at least three times (without the names or teacher names on), then, there was a set day after school when teachers could wander in, grab a packet, and put their numerical score on a pre-written rubric. Each poem was scored by at least three people (I scored every poem; it really went very fast). I gave out a 3rd, 2nd, and 1st prize in each grade (1st through 6th participated; I would have loved to get some kindergarten poems, but it didn’t work out for the teachers). Then, every day of the month in April, my principal let me read a winning poem on the announcements. The 1st prize winners got to read their own poems. (If there were extra days on the calendar, I read a published poem on those mornings.) (I started soliciting poems in January, with the final scoring in late March and the prizes all through April for National Poetry Month.) Michele |
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Janet Brilliant, Michele! It might also be fun to give out some wacky prizes--rewarding more and different kids (who might not be used to winning things). An award for a Poem that Makes Us Hungry, a prize for Most Unusual--you get the idea. There are some good contests already out there, too, for schools where no one can organize and judge a contest. The River of Words is one. Public libraries often have them, too. But I like the fact that you were able to give a few prizes to kids in each grade, Michele. Can anyone tell us about their experiences with existing contests? Janet |
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Michele Janet, Yes, those prizes are a great idea! In the contests I organized, there were some "low-achieving" students getting prizes. I was always happy when that happened! One of the resource students won 2nd place in the combined 5th/6th grade contest one year (she was the only 5th grader entered)! But, certainly, it would increase the likelihood that a broader range of students would get prizes if those other types of categories were introduced into the mix! Thank you! Michele |
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Linda I have had great success with www.poeticpower.com You can either send hard copy or email. Generally about 30% of the student entries are chosen. I was so excited. This year all my students were chosen (because their poems weren't "fill in the blanks"). The cost to purchase the book is about seventeen dollars but it is worth it. So many children were inspired to see their work in print. Linda |
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Betsy Michele, I can't wait to read your post about the poetry contest more carefully. I have to go now for a while, but I'll be back. Do you know, all this writing for the listserv has helped me to be more articulate and more sincere in my emails to other people these last few days.
cheers, |
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Lori I would love to see some talk round themed collections. I love them!! Can we talk about our favorite collections round themes? Lori |
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Marilyn Nowadays, it's very difficult to get a poetry collection published unless it IS thematic. One of my favorite collections is Joyce Sidman's This is Just to Say: Poems of Apology and Forgiveness. Joyce is an extraordinary poet, and this collection, inspired by a William Carlos Williams poem, is so fresh, true, and, deep without being the least bit abstruse. Marilyn |
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Sylvia Of course each of our distinguished poet panelists has created wonderful themed collections! I'm also a big fan of Naomi Shihab Nye's anthologies because she has managed to include poets from around the world (all translated into English). Look for: Nye, Naomi Shihab, comp. 1998. The Space Between our Footsteps: Poems and Paintings from the Middle East. New York: Simon & Schuster. Nye, Naomi Shihab, comp. 1992. The Same Sky: A Collection of Poems from Around the World. New York: Four Winds Press. Nye, Naomi Shihab, comp. 1995. The Tree is Older than You Are: A Bilingual Gathering of Poems and Stories from Mexico with Paintings by Mexican Artists.. New York: Simon & Schuster. Sylvia M. Vardell, Ph.D. |
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Yvonne Naomi Shihab Nye is speaking at one of the luncheons at NCTE's Conference. I love her. I signed up to hear her. Yvonne |
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Janet I want to be reincarnated as Naomi Shihab Nye. This year's NCTE will be super! San Antonio is such a great place. I'll be there...hope to see lots of you! My favorite story about Naomi: One day I asked Paul Janeczko to tell me about his best book signing ever. He said he couldn't say what the best one was, but the worst one was at a tiny bookstore in Maine. Naomi had come up from Texas, and Paul was disappointed that there was only one person at the signing. A woman and her dog. He and Naomi asked the woman if she had any questions or special requests, and she answered, "Well, yes, I would like you to read a poem to my dog." Paul didn't know what to say, but Naomi did not hesitate...and proceeded to read a poem to the dog. Janet |
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Betsy
No, I want
to be reincarnated as Naomi. She's so down to earth and so out of this
world, at the same time. |
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Betsy
I've been trying to think of my favorite themed poetry books
and the one that comes to mind is:
Betsy |
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Rebecca There are so many themed collections to choose from. It hasn't been that long that publishers literally demanded a manuscript of poems be on one certain theme. When I was just getting into publishing it was happening. I would much prefer writing a book that held every kind of poem imaginable; a poem about death, a lost kite, a willow tree, an island, a rusty bicycle, the moon. But as poets, we know publishers won't buy them anymore. So I also love themed collections, I'm just saying I wish there were room for both. I've always enjoyed seasonal poems; *winter poems are some of my favorites. I know, very traditional. *so why don't I write more of them? :) p.s. And thank you Betsy for liking Over in the Pink House so much! That book was so much fun to write. And students have the most fun modeling their own jump rope rhymes after those in the book during workshops.
Rebecca
Kai Dotlich |
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Marilyn Night, all. Going to dinner now with friends. If I have time, I'll sign on later. Marilyn |
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Richard I hope you have enjoyed the first two spirited days of discussion with our poetry panel. It has been a wonderful opportunity to exchange ideas and insights with Betsy Franco, Rebecca Kai Dotlich, J. Patrick Lewis, Marilyn Singer, Sylvia Vardell, and Janet Wong. Is there a question you have always wanted to ask? Do it now, before our time has ended. Richard |
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Janet When teachers ask me to recommend poetry books, often they’re eager for titles that tie in easily with the curriculum in other (non-language arts) content areas. These are some of the titles I often recommend (including some repeats of what others have mentioned): For the PE teacher (since I’m often doing my assemblies in the gym and find myself chatting with a PE teacher, and I LOVE the idea of a PE teacher starting class with a poem): Rebecca Kai Dotlich, Over in the Pink House: New Jump-Rope Rhymes Lee Bennett Hopkins’s two sports anthologies: Opening Days and Extra Innings Jack Prelutsky Good Sports My own collection (illustrated by yoga fanatic Julie Paschkis), Twist: Yoga Poems To tie in with math: Betsy Franco, Mathematicles Lee Bennett Hopkins, Marvelous Math (an anthology of work by many poets) J. Patrick Lewis, Arithme-tickle: An Even Number of Odd Riddle-Rhymes To tie in with science: J. Patrick Lewis, Scien-trickery: Riddles in Science Lee Bennett Hopkins, Spectacular Science (another anthology of work by many poets) Douglas Florian, Comet, Stars, the Moon, and Mars To tie in with history: Marilyn Nelson’s biographies: A Wreath for Emmett Till; Carver J. Patrick Lewis, The Brothers’ War: Civil War Voices in Verse Laura Amy Schlitz, Good Masters! Sweet Ladies! Voices from a Medievel Village (If you think that Pat’s name appears awfully frequently, well…he manages to get 10 times as many books published as the rest of us…except for Lee Bennett Hopkins!) Janet |
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Yvonne Great ideas. You all may want to consider submitting a proposal for WLU Conference next summer. Link: http://www.ncte.org/profdev/conv/wlu/121284.htm Yvonne |
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Betsy
Geez,
Janet, thanks for that list! I just declared you a national living
treasure. |
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Cynthia a friendly caution: Laura Schlitz sees and defines her work (Good Masters! Sweet Ladies!) as drama rather than poetry. Many playwrights, of course, write poetry, and the lines blur, especially when we let loose with it all in the classroom . . . but even so . . . the editorial process may have been quite different had she submitted a thematic collection of poems rather than the piece she did. Warmly, --cynthia grady |
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Janet Great point, Cynthia…thanks! I should’ve been more sensitive to that, especially because I am constantly telling people that my Minn and Jake books are “novels” or “chapter books” or “easy readers for older kids”…but not “poetry books.” Usually I make this point when a child asks, “Have you written any, um, REAL books? I mean, STORIES?”! Janet |
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Richard
Good morning folks, Be aware, the conversation will end today at 6:30 eastern time. Now is your chance to ask questions and share insights. We want to hear from you. tick. tick. tick. (that's the old pendulum clock on the mantel.) Richard |
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Lori
Tony Johnston wrote this one called It’s About Dogs. As a dog
lover, it is one of my favorites. My poetry collection is in my office,
and I am not, but I also have a collection about shoes, one about
camping, several about winter (one is Yolen, I don’t recall the other),
Updike has a lovely picture book collection of poems about the months of
the year. There are four seasonal ABC Acrostics that I fell for hook,
line and sinker. |
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Janet Yes, Lori, Tony Johnston's dog collection is a gem! Tony was a fellow student in Myra Cohn Livingston's Master Class in Poetry offered through UCLA Extension, as were Joan Graham (who posted here last night), April Halprin Wayland, Alice Schertle, Kris George, Ann Paul, Deborah Chandra, Monica Gunning, and more. Tony has such a keen ear! Janet |
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Jane Do any of YOU poets, taking after Myra Cohn Livingston's tradition of teaching others, offer classes or courses or mentoring? Jane |
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Deb And building on this question.... Do you participate in writers groups either on land or online? Adding to that I ask... Do you ever visit online college writing courses as 'guest speakers'?... Should probably say that that is a really loaded question... Deb |
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Rebecca Deb, I have gone to college classes as a guest speaker, but have never participated in an online visit. Rebecca
Rebecca
Kai Dotlich |
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Betsy I, too, have gone to college classes as a guest speaker, but have not done an online class.
Betsy |
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Betsy I do have a writing group that meets once a month. I find that when I write a collection of poems, or finish a piece in any genre, I fall in love with it. But my ability to see it for what it is, is limited. I need other eyes on my work. Before I had this group, editors would inevitably say, "I love your idea, but the manuscript needs work." My group has helped me recognize what that work is. I always tell them, though, that I want to hear what's working first and then what needs work. Otherwise, I'm on the defensive and not listening as well.
cheers,
Betsy |
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Betsy I forgot to say that Maria Damon, who teaches modern American poetry at the U of MN, has been my friend and poetry mentor for decades. I often read my poetry to her for advice. She also keeps me up to date on avant-garde poetry that's being written. Experimental poetry always stimulates my imagination.
cheers, |
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Rebecca Jane, Deb and all ... I am not in a writer's group. Pat Lewis and I frequently send each other poems back and forth for discussion and suggestions. I've done this occasionally with a few (very few) other poets. I know many people who are in a group and it works well for them. I'm more of a solitary writer. I am giving a poetry workshop next fall as a part of the Highlights Founders workshops in PA, along with Alice Schertle and Susan Pearson. Since Georgia Heard's name was brought up many times at the beginning of this discussion, some of you might be interested in knowing that Georgia and I are giving a poetry workshop for teachers on Singer Island in Florida next summer. If anyone is interested, you can email me off line. I always wished I could have been a part of Myra's classes. But I didn't live in California! I have been lucky enough to have been (and still am) mentored by Lee Bennett Hopkins. And my good friend Pat Lewis is also my constant teacher. (He doesn't try to be, he just is.) Speaking of Myra makes me also remember to give a nod to a great poet we lost a few years ago -- Barbara Juster Esbensen. She left us a grand body of work. What a poet she was. Rebecca
Rebecca
Kai Dotlich |
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Janet Lots of good questions, there, Deb! Online courses: I’ve not visited an online college writing course as a guest speaker, but it seems like a sensible thing for writers and colleges to start doing together. University conferences are some of my favorite speaking opportunities--there’s great energy produced from an audience of inquisitive, optimistic preservice teachers! Pat Lewis and I were fortunate enough to have that opportunity when we spoke at Texas Tech. It was especially neat because there was a mix of people in the audience; lots of professors and graduate students, preservice teachers, and middle and elementary school students. It might be difficult to duplicate that energy online, but I’m sure it would still be a valuable experience for everyone. Critique group: After a while, Myra decided to offer her Master Class in her home rather than officially through UCLA, and we continued to meet as a critique group. Having that group helped me enormously as a new writer. Probably more valuable than getting advice on my writing was listening to other works-in-progress and hearing everyone’s comments. Sometimes hearing critical analysis of one’s own writing is tough, but you can really learn from your friend’s writing being torn apart! After I moved away from Los Angeles, I didn’t join a group…but part of that was because I’d built good working relationships with my editors and, as someone once told me, “It doesn’t really matter whether your critique group loves that poem…what counts is what your editor thinks.” Still, like Rebecca, I turn to Pat Lewis when I am really stuck or feeling insecure about a poem. I like to ask whether Version A or B sounds better. I also value Alice Schertle’s advice. Who’s teaching/mentoring now? April Halprin Wayland and Ann Whitford Paul, two of Myra’s Master Class students, teach at UCLA Extension…but I’m not sure whether they teach picture book writing or poetry. I try to be generous with my advice to aspiring writers, as Myra was with me, but most of my hands-on writing workshops are confined to the school or conference setting. I’ll share some of Myra’s wisdom (and my own knowledge and opinions, particularly about the publishing process), but those are one-shot classes, and there is only so much you can say in 45 minutes! Janet |
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Marilyn Good morning. I will be here just briefly today, but I'll add my two cents. I haven't done online courses, but I used to host the Children's Writers Chat on AOL before AOL went corporate. I have given occasional poetry workshops to aspiring poets and lectures to students and teachers. Currently, I co-host the Poetry Blast at ALA and other conferences--a reading in which all of the amazing poets in this discussion have participated. The next one will be on July 13 from 5:30-7:30 p.m. in Chicago. I don't belong to a critique group, but, like Rebecca and Janet, I ask some of my fab poet friends for their thoughts--notably Rebecca, Betsy, Kris George and Joanne Ryder. I also make my husband critique my stuff. Man, is he tough! Following Sylvia's lead, I'm pasting below from my web site TEN TIPS FOR WRITING POETRY. I give these out at the Blast and at other events. Marilyn
1. Pay
attention to the world around you—little things, big things, people,
animals, buildings, events, etc. What do you see, hear, taste, smell,
feel? Marilyn |
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Betsy
Good morning, it's
6:30
here and I'm a morning person... I've had people tell me that they wish they'd had Mathematickles when they were young because they might have understood math better. “Mathematickles” is math problems about the seasons where words take the place of numbers.
dandelions x wind = white wishes There are division problems and multiplication tables and so on. I've had kids write "mathematickles" in grades 1 through 12. The secondary kids wrote the algebraic properties with words. So
here it is:
Note: If you need down-to-earth suggestions for teaching and
understanding poetry, please see my book. It includes reading and
writing poetry.
Dodds, Dayle Ann. The Great Divide, A Mathematical
Marathon.
Cambridge: Candlewick Press, 2005.
These authors keep writing math oriented poetry, BTW, so they may have
new titles since I compiled this list. |
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Sylvia Before we wind down, I want to bring up one other point as we share poetry with kids-- and that's the value of including poetry when working with children learning English as a second (or additional) language. We may think they're not "ready" for poetry, but quite the opposite is true. Poetry is concise, with precise word choice and often rich visual images. Plus, there's a strong emotional punch. All these elements provide a point of contact for the child sifting through all the new words and structures she/he is encountering in English. Plus, I've found these kids can be very effective creators of poems too, using words in surprising ways-- even when their vocabulary is only small, but growing. And it's a terrific outlet for them! Just one caveat: we usually think of sharing humorous poetry with kids first, but with many ESL/ELL kids, I find that's NOT the best way to start. Humor is very culturally bound, so they may not "get" the humor until they've learned more about American culture, school life, and slang. If this topic interests you, please allow me to direct you to an article I authored with some colleagues a few years ago. And the poetry list from the article is listed below-- just as a starting point. MANY more poetry books are suitable, of course. Vardell, S. M., Hadaway, N.L., and Young, T.A. (2006). Matching books and readers: Selecting literature for English learners. The Reading Teacher. 59, (8), 734-741. A Poetry Sampler 1. Alarcón, F.X. (1997). Laughing Tomatoes and other Spring Poems /Jitomates Risueños y otros Poemas de Primavera. San Francisco, CA: Children’s Book Press. 2. Crew, G. (2003). Troy Thompson’s Excellent Peotry [sic] Book. La Jolla, CA: Kane/Miller. 3. Florian, D. (1994). Bing Bang Boing. San Diego, CA: Harcourt. 4. Florian, D. (1998). Insectlopedia. San Diego, CA: Harcourt. 5. Grimes, N. (2000). Shoe Magic. New York: Orchard Books. 6. Hopkins, L.B. (Ed.). (1997). Marvelous Math: A Book of Poems. New York: Simon & Schuster. 7. Hopkins, L.B. (Ed.). (1999). Spectacular Science: A Book of Poems. New York: Simon & Schuster. 8. Hudson, W. (Ed.). (1993). Pass It On: African-American Poetry for Children. New York: Scholastic. 9. Livingston, M.C. (1996). Festivals. New York: Holiday House. 10. Mora, P. (1996). Confetti: Poems for Children. New York: Lee & Low. 11. Prelutsky, J. (1984). The New Kid on the Block. New York: HarperCollins. 12. Silverstein, S. (1974). Where the Sidewalk Ends. New York: HarperCollins. 13. Soto, G. (1995). Canto Familiar. San Diego, CA: Harcourt. 14. Wong, J.S. (1994). Good Luck Gold and Other Poems. New York: Simon & Schuster. 15. Wong, J.S. (2003). Knock on Wood: Poems about Superstitions. New York: Simon & Schuster.
Sylvia M.
Vardell, Ph.D. |
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Betsy I want to second this suggestion about ELL. The ELL teacher at the school I walk to every morning suggested we try mathematickles based on my book Mathematickles in her classroom. She said they were perfect because they often involve nouns and they are short and require less knowledge of grammar. Here are a few examples from children who came to the school from China, Korea, Israel, and Mexico.
water + rock + fish = river (China)
cheers, |
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Betsy I want to chime in about something I discuss in Conversations with a Poet. It's something I try to do when I visit classrooms. It can also be done by the classroom teacher. And that is building a community of writers/poets. In the beginning, there will be some children who love to volunteer and read out loud. But one thing I do that opens things up for others to share and that unites us is this: After they all write a poem on a theme (or using several sample poems on a broad theme that serve as jumping-off places), I ask all the children to write their two favorite lines from their poems on a small sheet of paper I pass out. I ask them to write legibly. Then I shuffle the papers and read all their work as a new collaborative poem. Talk about magic. They are so engaged, it's palpable. And they start to become a community. I've done this from elementary to high school. In a 10th grade class where the kids were reading at a 2nd to 6th grade level and where they told me their interest in writing was a 0 on a scale of 1 to 10, after we did this, one boy shouted out, "Let's do it again!" Everyone was so awake it was crazy. Everyone busily wrote the next poem and we did it again. They called the first poem "I Want by the Writers in Room 26."
cheers, |
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Janet I love that exercise, Betsy! It sounds so…Dada, so ridiculous and confusing and fun! So: do you piece together the 2-line fragments so that they kind of make sense when connected with each other? Or do you just read them in the completely random order that results from the shuffling? Janet |
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Betsy
This is the magic of poetry. I just shuffle and it comes out beautifully every time. I end up typing it up and sending it to the class after my visit. Betsy |
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Michele I teach 7th grade special day class, Language Arts. The book we use allocates 11 pages to poetry; there are 5 poems in the Unit. I think I will stretch the unit a bit, since I’m a lover, reader, and a writer of poetry. One of the advantages of a special education class (in some districts, and/or at some sites) is that we don’t need to follow the Houghton Mifflin pacing guide that the other teachers follow (or, whatever the curriculum is) since we’re using alternative materials, usually written at a lower grade level. This unit is written at about the 4th grade level. I have also checked out several poetry anthologies from our school library and will read at least one poem a day at the end of class. As someone else mentioned, it really takes very little time just to read a poem to the class. More later. Michele |
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Betsy I love that new people are adding to the discussion today. Would anyone else out there like to chime in with a question, a comment about what teachers need, an example of some poetry activity that worked well. I have to admit it feels like a risk to add to this conversation. By the time I get up in California, the discussion is blazing away and it takes a little push to get myself to start adding my two cents. But let me tell you, poets love to hear new voices, new ideas, new ways to use their poetry, new questions that challenge them and remind them why they're writing poetry.
cheers, |
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Rebecca But let me tell you, poets love to hear new voices, new ideas, new ways to use their poetry, new questions that challenge them and remind them why they're writing poetry. Good point Betsy. How true. Rebecca
Rebecca
Kai Dotlich |
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Betsy Michele,
I loved
your post. I would also suggest my anthologies of teen poetry (selected
as Quick Picks by ALA) because the authors, from all over the country,
really get honest. It showed the kids in the special day class I
visited that you can actually write about feelings and situations that
mean something to you. They had a lot to say once they realized that. |
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Betsy If you want more specific suggestions…
Poetry Writing Ideas
Web
site: www.betsyfranco.com Contact: francobe@aol.com
You Hear Me? Poems and Writing by Teenage Boys
"once..." p.1
"Envy,"
p.62
For 10
more ideas: candlewickpress.com, search for You Hear Me?, and
click reader's guide. |
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Lori These are both amazing books and in many classrooms here. If we are talking teens, then we have to talk Tupac. I am no rapper, but he wrote a book of poetry. His poem appears formally published on one side and the other is the journal entry—complete with lovely mess. This book exists in double in every middle school classroom here and there are five copies in the library and no one can ever lay hands on it. It is definitely the most stolen—high praise from reluctant readers. And please don’t forget Sara Holbrook. Lori |
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Betsy The first time I gave a poetry workshop, I took six months to prepare. I didn't understand how to start, what exactly to do, how to get the kids started, how to have them share. I mean, I had some idea--I'd been a teacher--but when it got down to the nitty gritty, I wasn't really sure how to motivate middle school kids. So I asked the masters, such as my friends at InsideOut Literary Arts Project in Detroit, and they gave me lots of suggestions. When I visited Brown with my poetry professor friend, one of the instructors/profs (not sure) at Brown asked me what I'd found out because she was looking for some formats for presenting poetry that worked. So I wasn't alone. So...anyway, I wrote it up in my book Conversations with a Poet. I wrote up various possibilities for presenting poetry and having kids write. I know this is a tease...but that's what it is. I wrote that book to help teachers who were wondering how to understand poetry better so they felt confident about presenting it more often and in more effective ways. I love teachers and I think I understand the challenges of teachers, because I taught in K-12, except third grade, in one way or another. And when I taught, it wasn't even as challenging as it is now.
Betsy |
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Rebecca
I'd like to mention a few of our contemporary poets writing for children today, and throw out a few 'first words' that describe, for me, what I admire about their poetry. Obviously this isn't a long thought out or all inclusive list; it doesn't mean I don't admire many others! In no particular order: * (Teachers all, please join in and tell us which book of each poet you use a lot -- or a particular poem!)
Pat Lewis His natural wordplay ability, his range of form, among many, many other things.
Marilyn Singer Her obvious love of nature comes through in her stellar poems.
Betsy Franco Her creativity and thinking out of the box ability.
Janet Wong Her talent for creating small stories within a few words. Fascinating.
Alice Schertle Not enough can be said about this poet. She's brilliant.
Kristine George Her attention to detail. Her metaphors.
Georgia Heard The heart that goes into her work. Her connection to children's feelings.
Jack Prelutsky His humor, without stepping over the line into gross. His word choice.
Lee Bennett Hopkins His true heart-connection to children & poetry both show through whatever he writes or selects for his anthologies. He offers teachers poetry-bibles for their classrooms. I wish he would spend time writing more of his own poetry.
Joe Kennedy His humor, wordplay, wit.
Paul Janeczko His collections are always full of playful creativity or playing with poetry in general; he does a lot for connecting boys and poetry.
Jane Yolen Jane can write anything under the sun well. She always pays great attention to nature; the details of nature.
Nikki Grimes Her threads of story in poetry.
Doug Florian Obviously his wordplay. His experimentation.
Naomi Nye Her poems are like slices of life.
Again, these are off the tip of my tongue. It was quick. I simply stated a few words or lines that I immediately thought of. Would love to hear from teachers about these poets and or individual poems.
Rebecca
Rebecca Kai Dotlich |
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Janet Great descriptions, Rebecca! I especially agree that I'd like to see more of Lee's own poems. Related thought: Compiling an anthology is an exercise that helps students hone their taste and critical skills. Janet |
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Betsy
Wanted
to add some:
Betsy |
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Sylvia Thanks for these nuggets-- it's always fun to hear which poets people enjoy. And I know you like many others, too, of course. I was gathering lists of "favorite" poets for my students and it kept growing and growing and finally led to my writing a resource book for teachers ABOUT poets writing for children, Poetry People. I profile 62 poets (including the five fabulous voices who are participating here) and provide a 2-3 page entry on each with a bit of biographical information, as well as ideas for using their poetry. I hope you'll check it out: http://lu.com/showbook.cfm?isbn=9781591584438 Some other poets I admire include: Francisco X. Alarcon for his succinct staccato in both Spanish and English
Kathi Appelt for her lyrical work for teens (and helpful guidebook on teaching poetry to teens)
Helen Frost for her insight and experimentation with form and craft
Pat Mora for the music of her language ditto for Charles R. Smith, Jr., although in a completely different way
Carole Boston Weatherford for her knack for weaving history through poetry
And of course all the winners of the NCTE Poetry Award (for their body of work). Like the smart and pithy Valerie Worth. The hilarious and wry John Ciardi (who was Shel Silverstein before there was Shel Silverstein). Aileen Fisher with a child's appreciation of the natural world, and on and on...
Sylvia Vardell, Ph.D. |
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Rebecca Sylvia, you always add so much to poetry conversations. So much. Great additions to my list. Like I said, it was spur of the moment and I knew I'd overlook many good poets. And how I could have forgotten to mention my good friend and poet Kathi Appelt, I'll never know. Isn't she wonderful. I also want to mention two of my favorite poetry collections that are not verse novels, but are written as individual poems in a free verse/story format: Judy scuppernong by Brenda Seabrooke, Waiting to Waltz by Cynthia Rylant Rebecca
Rebecca
Kai Dotlich |
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Richard For our guest panel, I would like to ask each of you to tell us what you are currently working on, or what you have recently completed that will be coming out soon. What is it in this season that has you excited? Richard |
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Betsy
This year
and next are very exciting years for me. I've never, ever had so many
books coming out at once-ones I'm very excited about, so I'm going to
shamelessly name 'em. |
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Rebecca For me, I only have one book coming out anytime soon. That is Bella & Bean, a friendship story (a traditional picture book in prose), and one of the characters (Bella) happens to be a poet. That will be out in February of '09. I just recently finished two collections with Jane Yolen and am working on about 3 poetry collections, one is winter related. I am also working on a rhyming picture book. And a beginning chapter book. But these are nowhere near ready for editorial eyes and none have contracts as of yet. And this is nothing compared to the books that I know some of our poets on this guest panel have coming out and in the works. :) Rebecca ps. This season is my favorite, very favorite time of year. The crisp feel of the air, wearing sweaters, pumpkins on porches. Rebecca
Rebecca
Kai Dotlich |
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Marilyn My latest book is First Food Fight This Fall (Sterling), poems about school in the voices of several kids in a class. I used different forms for the different voices. It was a lot of fun to write. The interesting thing is that the last poem in the book was the first one I wrote.
Right now I'm working on a middle grade science fiction novel (!) and circulating a bunch of manuscripts at least some of which I hope will get published.
I have a number of books coming out in the next few years.
Picture Book (prose): Tallulah's Tutu about a girl in ballet class.
Picture Books (rhyme): I’m Your Bus (Scholastic) about your pal, the school bus Checkup (Clarion) about going to the doctor So Many Kinds of Kisses (BeginSmart), a board book about kisses
What is
Your Dog Doing?
(Atheneum)--the title speaks for itself A Stick is an Excellent thing (Clarion), poems about games and play Cat Chasing Day, and Other Dog Holidays (Dutton)--the title is going to change, possibly to just Dog Holidays The Boy Who Cried Alien (Hyperion), a science fiction movie in poems (not to be confused with the novel which I'm writing) A Full Moon is Rising (Lee & Low), a world tour of a full moon
An as-yet unnamed book of "reversos," a form I invented, all based on fairy tales, to be published by Dutton.
Thanks for asking!
Marilyn |
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Pat As this will be my last hurrah on this wonderful TLN Listserve, may I say how grand it was to be able to participate and to hear all of the fascinating palaver about children's poetry--from poets and teachers alike. I feel humbled and honored that Betsy asked and Richard agreed to let me be a small part of it. I'm actually on vacation, so I apologize for not participating as much I would normally have done. At Richard's encouragement, I'd like to mention the books coming out, one this month and the rest in 2009 and beyond. Birds on a Wire: A Renga 'Round Town (with Paul B. Janeczko), Boyds Mills Press/Wordsong, Fall 2008 (Gary Lippincott, ill.)--a book length renga sequence about life in small town America. The Underwear Salesman: And Other Jobs for Better or Verse, S&S/Atheneum, Spring 2009 (Serge Bloch, ill.) --poems about odd jobs. Countdown to Summer: A Poem for Every Day of the School Year, Little, Brown, Spring 2009 (Ethan Long, ill.)--180 poems. Skywriting: Poems in Flight, Creative Editions, Fall 2009 (Laszlo Kubinyi, ill.)--poems about the history of aviation/airplanes. Spot the Plot! A Riddle Book of Book Riddles, Chronicle Books, Fall 2009 (Lynn Munsinger, ill.)--riddles about classic children's books. The House, Creative Editions, Fall 2009 (Roberto Innocenti, ill.)--a book-length poem about one house on an Italian hillside and how it changed/survived throughout the 20th century. The Kindergarten Cat, Schwartz & Wade/Random House, Summer 2010 (Ailie Busby, ill.)--a story in verse for the very young. Mr. Nickel & Mrs. Dime, Schwartz & Wade/Random House, 2010 (Valorie Fisher, ill.)--a book-length rebus in nonsense sestets. Twinspiration: A Double Dose of Poems (with Jane Yolen), Candlewick, Spring 2011 (Sophie Blackall, ill.)--poems about twins. Last Laughs: Animal Epitaphs (with Jane Yolen), Charlesbridge, 2011 Self-Portrait with Seven Fingers: A Life of Marc Chagall in Verse (with Jane Yolen), Creative Editions, 201?
Best wishes to all for a blissticular, fababoluminous and poetudinous school year!
Cheers, Pat
J. Patrick Lewis |
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Janet I have two books coming out in the next couple of years: Homegrown House (Fall 2009, McElderry/Simon & Schuster), illustrated by E.B. Lewis - about a girl who is sick of moving and wishes her family could stay put long enough to put their own personal touches on it, to "make their house homegrown" (a tribute to those of you who have nurtured the same house for 20 years or more...and a mild mockery of myself, since I get antsy after 3 years in a house) and Me and Rolly Maloo (Spring 2010, Charlesbridge), an easy reader/chapter book about an unpopular girl who cheats on the math test because Rolly Maloo, the most popular girl in school, asks her to give her answers. What am I working on now? About 20 different projects...including: Acupuncture Porcupine: Poems about Healing poems about alternative medicine, such as chiropractic, acupuncture, and elk velvet antler (and also some “old wive’s tales”) Flow: Water Poems (with Julie Paschkis) Minn and Jake #3 (one issue: Jake wants to take Human Growth Hormone to grow taller) A saber fencing version of Alex and the Wednesday Chess Club; tentative title: Kelly and the Friday Fencing Club. An untitled book, am trying to decide whether to call it Right or Wrong or Somewhere in the Middle, a collection of poems exploring ethics (for kids 4-8, who are so very concerned with fairness, cheating, punishment, and lies) This is a very exciting time for me as a writer; please look for this new crop of books, starting next Fall! All best, |
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Sylvia
I am SO excited to see all these plans for new poetry books and have made a note on each and will look forward to their publication. Keep on, oh wonderful poets! I have been urged to share my writing plans, too, though I am an academic and not a poet... I'm currently wrapping up my January "Everyday Poetry" column for BOOK LINKS magazine. I'm trying to match each winner of a 2008 multicultural award with the perfect poetry book companion. For example, Hiroshima Dreams by Kelly Easton won the Asian/Pacific American Award for Literature (APAAL) for young adult literature. It's a fascinating growing up story about a girl in a bi-cultural family and the influence of her grandmother, a Hiroshima survivor. I'm pairing it with A Suitcase of Seaweed by our very own Janet Wong. I'm also working on a little resource book on the 50+ poetry books for young people published THIS YEAR (2008) and how to use them with kids. I keep a regular blog on poetry for children with new entries every Friday, so that's an ongoing project. (This year, I'm trying to discuss every new poetry book published-- plus tie poetry in with relevant happenings. Earlier this week I posted a poem by Emily Dickinson about hurricanes-- because of Ike's arrival in Houston/Galveston.) That's: http://poetryforchildren.blogspot.com/ I'm shifting gears shortly and taking on a non-poetry gig--as co-editor of BOOKBIRD, the journal of international children's literature. But you'll be glad to know that I've proposed a new feature for the journal--a "back page" at the end featuring... A POEM--hopefully in many different languages over my three year term. I'm also bringing 6 poets to Texas for the Texas Library Association annual conference in April. Including BETSY FRANCO and J. PAT LEWIS! (Janet, Marilyn, and Rebecca have all be previous presenters!) I urge you all to consider bringing poets to your schools, school districts, libraries, and professional events. All these people are amazing, articulate and inspiring speakers--as you surely have noticed in their postings. So often, we feature authors at various speaking engagements, but forget to consider poets as public speakers. I hope this thread will encourage you to do otherwise. It will be unforgettable, I promise. Thanks to everyone for reading and responding. I apologize for being a bit didactic and self-serving at times, but I felt my calling was to be the pushy person preaching about the poets and poetry resources! Keep on...
Sylvia M.
Vardell, Ph.D. |
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Marjory
I will be going out shortly and wanted to make sure to thank the poets,
all the participants and Richard for a fabulous conversation that has
given me so much to think about as I digest all that has been written
over the last three days. It has been such an energizing and enriching
conversation! I see a trip to the bookstore in the near future. Margie |
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Jayne I cannot thank you all enough for the extremely inspiring discussions focused around poetry. I have thoroughly enjoyed this dialogue. I look forward to continuing these wonderful discussions! Thank you, thank you, thank you! Jayne |
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Marilyn Let me add my thanks for having the chance to participate in this discussion, especially in the company of five people I like a lot and also admire. Thanks to Richard for having created this listserv. Keep lifting that torch for poetry! Marilyn Singer |
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Betsy
My
email is starting to act up in weird ways so I thought I'd better say
good-bye before I wasn't able to.
Bye, |
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Rebecca I'll say goodbye, too. Just like my fellow (and wonderful and giving and talented) poets and friends, I thank each and every one of you who joined this discussion, who work tirelessly day after day to teach the children of this world, and especially to introduce a little poetry into their lives. I hope in the months and years to come I can write poetry that will inspire your students, or make them wonder, or imagine, or dream. Richard, I appreciate being a part of this. Best to all, Rebecca
Rebecca Kai Dotlich |
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Janet Time for me to say goodbye, too…Did anyone say this already: I feel like we should be singing the Sound of Music song “So Long, Farewell,” as each of us does our thank you and exits! I have a request. As a thank you to Richard and all the people at Richard C. Owen Publishers, if you liked some of my posts, please take a look at my Meet the Author book, Before It Wriggles Away http://rcowen.com/MTA-JanetWong.htm. Ask your school librarian if you can get it, either from your school library or inter-library loan. Or at least download the Teacher’s Guide (found at that same link)…and please let me know if your students enjoy my writing exercises! 30 SECONDS a day: READ A POEM! All best wishes,
Janet |
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Richard
Dear Friends,
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