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Online discussion about Retrospective Miscue Analysis Helping Readers Revalue Reading, Transcript © 2008 by Richard C. Owen Publishers, Inc. All rights reserved. Permission is granted to print, copy, or transmit this transcript for personal use only, provided this entire copyright statement is included. This transcript, in part or in whole, may not otherwise be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electrical or mechanical, including inclusion in a book or article, recording, or by any information storage and retrieval system, without permission in writing from the publisher. |
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Richard
Good evening folks, Richard
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Vicki Before I became a literacy coach, I engaged 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade readers in RMA through a collaborative learning process in the classroom. The first year I tried RMA, I engaged only four readers, all struggling for various reasons, in the process. Because of the powerful way in which the students changed as readers, I then tried the process with all readers in my 3rd grade classroom (I did have a small group of 14). Even the confident readers learned about themselves as readers in ways that we would not have been able to "get at" if we had not engaged in the process. RMA allows teachers to know their students in ways not possible through other kinds of assessment.
Vicki Seeger |
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Prisca WOW, Vicki! I'm interested in knowing more about how you used RMA with your 3rd grade class. I also used it with a class of 15 students, all being retained in 3rd grade because of test scores. I worked with the kids individually and then, with their permission, played parts of their tapes for the others in the class to show the brilliant strategies they were using as they read. We had some incredible discussions. Last year I worked with four 3rd grade boys who were struggling. Sometimes we listened to the tape of them or another reader and sometimes we talked about miscues that they made as we were reading together in the group. That too worked really well. In both cases we focused on miscues that showed the readers' strengths and the students' reading and understanding improved as well as their confidence in themselves (and others) as readers. Please share what you did with your students. Thanks! Prisca |
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Vicki Rita Moore and I are writing a book about the research we did in my classroom with this third grade group. I was able to schedule the collaborative RMA groups around my guided reading groups and Writing Workshop, so that I met with each group at least once a week, sometimes twice. The conversations in the groups were powerful. It depended on the strength of the group how much I had to facilitate, but they were generally student-led discussions about the miscues and retellings. Every student was able to complete 3-4 readings within the semester we conducted our research, and thus, we were also able to have 3-4 discussions for each student within the group. I am just completing the coursework for my doctorate, and my dissertation topic and research will be centered on a collaborative RMA process. v.
Vicki Seeger |
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Heidi Vicki, Thank you for sharing your incredible experiences with RMA. I use RMA with adolescent readers working in collaborative groups, and the rich discussions never fail to amaze me. I will be looking for your book. When do you think it will be ready for publication? Thank you, Heidi
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Vicki Heidi, The book will be published with Corwin. We are scheduled for a January 09 publication date. That seems like a long way off right now, but given how fast this school year has passed, I know it will be here before I know. Are you working on your dissertation research in this area, too? And, will you be at the WLU Conference in July? Rita and I are presenting on another research project related to my classroom students and her preservice teachers engaging in a pen pal project together. Vicki |
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Heidi Hi Vicki, Thank you for the information. There needs to be more literature in the field about RMA. I am in awe of the experience and expertise of the respondents to this online discussion. I have just begun my doctorate, so dissertation seems a long way off; however, I have been using Collaborative Retrospective Miscue Analysis in my secondary classroom with urban youth who are struggling readers for the past five years. I am hoping to use CRMA in my dissertation work. I am also interested in spatial practices (Sheehy and Leander) and reader response and looking for ways that tie these threads together in my work with urban youth. I will be at WLU in July. I am presenting my work on CRMA with Yetta, Prisca, etc. I would enjoy meeting you and hearing more about your work. Heidi |
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Yetta Vicki.... I also look forward to your book. We need to flood the reading field with the stories of our experiences with readers. As you know Rita Moore also has a book coauthored with Carol Gilles, Reading Conversations: Retrospective Miscue Analysis for Struggling Readers 4-12. I think it is on the reference list at the end of the article Richard Owen posted before the beginning of this discussion. Yetta....... Y |
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Yvonne I have written this before. But, I want to emphasize that I didn't really understand the reading process from the inside out until I learned about miscue analysis. But somehow I knew that teaching kids phonics rules didn't work. So, I just gave them great literature to read, involved them in grand conversations, and had them help one another, and didn't have round robin reading or high, medium, and low reading groups. Yvonne Siu-Runyan |
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Marti I find the comments and information about the use of RMA with older readers just fascinating. It makes so much sense! My former district was really attached to using scripted synthetic phonics programs with struggling middle schoolers. I found and find the idea really horrific. Reading has always been a meaning making process for me. I am so heartened to hear what is being done with older students. Marti in NH |
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Cindy I have not tried RMA with my fifth grade students, but I am always looking for ways to make sure I help them become great readers by increasing their fluency and comprehension. For the past three years, my colleagues and I have worked on strategies to get our students to respond to literature with depth and complexity using GATE icons. I look forward to learning more about RMA. I like the idea of using it with four to five struggling students as I usually have about 30 students in my classroom.
Cindy Hallman |
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Prisca Good Morning Cindy and all! I'm looking forward to interacting with you and everyone over the next several days about RMA. My experiences with it have been incredible. It's a powerful way to engage students into thinking about their own reading and revalue reading and themselves as readers. Please tell us more about your struggling students. Prisca |
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Jeanne Good Morning, As a Title 1 Reading Specialist I've been using Miscue Analysis with my fifth grade students for years. I've always shared the analysis with students along with metacognitive strategies, because I think we teach reading according to our theory of how reading works. I recognize that not all students learn to read the same way that I did so I don't want to ignore any strategy, but it is a process. Once students have learned to read, being aware of how they are reading-that standing in the back of your mind observing what you are doing while you are doing it-is invaluable to reading to learn. My use of miscue analysis has been primarily unstructured and pretty much on an "in the teachable moment" event-while DIBELING or any time a student is reading out loud. The practice has been very effective. It seems that there might be value in formalizing this process. What are the questions that are asked of the reader (p. 8)? I'm eager for replies. Jeanne |
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Prisca The general questions we use are a little further on in the chapter. The idea is to get readers to revalue what they do when they read so they see the strengths they already have. Basically, we ask the readers if what they read made sense, if they corrected it, and if they needed to correct it for meaning. Below I'm pasting part of an RMA discussion I had with some 3rd grade boys (Ben, Ron, Nate, and Kyle). It's hard to paste this in because of formatting, etc., so I hope it makes sense. It gives the general flow of an RMA discussion (although discussions with older readers could be much more in depth). This snippet of discussion is about this sentence: "He also said to watch out for the books on his desk." Ron was the reader and read: "He also said to which...watch out for his books on his desk." After playing the tape: Ben: He said "which". It's not a perfect discussion but you can see how it focuses the readers on making sense and on revaluing themselves as readers. What kinds of questions do you use with your students? Prisca |
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Marti Prisca, Thank you for this example of am RMA discussion. I read the chapter and did not get a sense of how the RMA could fit easily into the busy primary classroom. I initially had the sense it had to be a very formalized pull-out type of experience. I can really see a classroom teacher pulling a small group together at a table to have this discussion. I can also see how the planning can occur very naturally using the teaching, learning cycle. I am wondering if the questions would ever be used more informally after listening to a child read a selection. After the reading, going back into the text and drawing the child's attention to a miscue and asking the questions. Or is the tape recording really critical? I like the empowering quality of the process. My personal reaction is that RMA would not interfere with comprehension. I know that when I was practicing the use of comprehension strategies discussed by Keene/Zimmerman, I did not suddenly think about how I was reading every time I read a Robert Ludlum thriller. I do think that I was more aware of how I was increasing comprehension when I read a more difficult text such as Pamuk's, My Name is Red. I am thinking that the same would hold for RMA. I particularly like the idea that everyone makes miscues. Thinking about this conversation, I was aware today when I read " The racing water rushed Owen" instead of "The racing water washed Owen" as I was reading Owen and Mzee to a group of second graders. Often when reading orally I will make miscues that do not effect the meaning and I can just go on. This time I corrected as the miscue was not helpful as I finished the sentence. When I do something like that should I comment on the miscue at the time or does that interfere with the flow of the story and the students' own meaning making? Might I go back at the end of the story and say something like, “I want to remind you of how I miscued here and decided to correct as I did not think my miscue helped with the meaning making." I am reading the Reading Miscue Inventory as I participate in this discussion as I have not had experience with miscue analysis, only the analysis of running records. So, I am not coming to this discussion with a great deal of background. Marti in NH |
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Prisca Hi, Marti - There certainly are occasions you may want to formally tape a child reading and have a one-on-one session to discuss miscues. That may even be helpful if you're new to RMA and need a deeper understanding of the process yourself. Lots of teachers have probably been doing more "informal" RMA in classrooms for decades without realizing it. You're right - it can occur very naturally. The advantage of the tape recording is that it's "documented" evidence of the miscue. Many times readers won't be aware of their miscues, especially if they are high quality miscues. The example I posted was based on students listening to a tape. I have other examples where that wasn't the case, though. The reader talked about what he/she did while reading and others responded, sometimes with miscues the reader missed. As for discussing miscues, there probably isn't a hard and fast "rule". Stopping as soon as you make the miscue would definitely interrupt the flow of the story but waiting might mean the children don't really remember. Reminding them helps, though. I've done it both ways, depending on the situation/context. Others may have other suggestions. I'm glad to hear you're reading the RMI book!!! Please don't hesitate to bring any questions to us that you may have. You need a real understanding of that to fully understand RMA. Prisca |
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Michele In my experience when students are reading for meaning and not dwelling on their miscues they often don't recall having trouble with a word. So I prefer documenting with a recording. It is important to show the students what good reading looks like and watch when they are brilliant. It also serves as a model to the rest of the class.
Michele Gennaoui,
mgennaoui@sfdesales.org |
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Hugo In what way does conscious knowledge and understanding about strategies and process have impact on the way students approach reading? In a way what I want to say is peripheral to the main subject, in a way not. The word I want to emphasize is conscious. RMA as described in the article is an open, democratic process engendering mutual thought about praxis and learning - it is meta-cognition writ rather large. Meta-learning, perhaps. The conscious (which is a small and rather ponderous facility of uncertain purpose compared to the unconscious) is being directed at the meta- of life, to the frameworks and real world structures. This is exactly where it belongs. I believe it to be a stunning example of a cognitively suited, mentally correct approach which produces long-lasting (everlasting) effects. I have used it (much less formally) for years. I think one of its main strengths is that it treats students as people who can and must contribute to their own learning, their own growth - as subjects rather than objects. Hugo |
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Alan Greetings everyone, I'd like to respond to something Hugo just wrote: "RMA as described in the article is an open, democratic process engendering mutual thought about praxis and learning..." and that "...one of its main strengths is that it treats students as people who can and must contribute to their own learning, their own growth - as subjects rather than objects." I think these comments hit the mark. I think of RMA as an engagement in which the focus is on a co-exploring of language as used in real reading contexts. Because the focus is on language-in-use, RMA is truly an open sort of inquiry. There are no right answers to the questions about how we use language as we ask, "Why do you think you make this miscue?". Rather, teacher and student jointly make observations and conjectures about how and why reading works. And RMA is democratic in the sense that the conversations that take place when doing RMA move far away from the type of exchanges that are characterized by the transmission of knowledge from teacher to student. Instead, the focus is one of the mutual pursuit of how readers construct meaning as they read. As Yetta and others have written elsewhere, because the focus of conversations (I sometimes use the term mini-lessons) is on the co-exploration of language-in-use, and because these conversations are initiated by observations of readers' linguistic strengths and sense making capabilities (high quality miscues), readers develop a personal stake in the proceedings. The focus shifts away from what a reader might consider punitive ("Here's what you did wrong...") toward a discussion about what readers do as they make sense ("Gee, that was a smart miscue..."). And that includes the production of miscues that demonstrate how readers are focusing on meaning. Alan Alan D. Flurkey |
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Dave Hello everybody, Although someone may have added this thought already as I try to catch up, I do not want to get further along in my reading and forget to add it to the brilliant exchange between Hugo and Alan. While this thought may be implied within Hugo's expression, I would like to add the words "and the creation of their own identity" so that the phrase reads: "...one of its main strengths is that it treats students as people who can and must contribute to their own learning, their own growth, and the creation of their own identity - as subjects rather than objects." With respect, Dave
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Prisca The insights readers gain about reading and themselves as readers through RMA discussions in which they reflect on their own or other readers' miscues are very empowering. Readers move from seeing their "mistakes" as signs of their inabilities to understanding that their miscues are evidence of their thinking and making sense as they read. They are more confident, read more, and grow in their reading proficiency. Frank Smith cautions, though, that being too conscious of the reading process can get in the way of reading proficiency and comprehension. So far I'm not aware of that happening with RMA -Yetta may know more. Prisca |
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Deb I agree with Frank Smith that being too conscious of the reading process may hinder comprehension. There is an analogy that might work here. I've experienced one of those "perfect oral reading" euphoric "in the zone" type of performances for a methodology course I took for my doctorate. I mean I was really "in the zone" - Reggie Miller 8-3 pointers in less than 1 minute and a half (sorry, basketball...Indiana...and perhaps it was 5 not 8...) type of readings. My prof stopped my reading to discuss that section and then proceeded to tell me how beautiful I sounded reading it that I should now finish the passage. Well, needless to say I stumbled, botched, etc. the rest of the passage. It didn't affect comprehension or proficiency but it sure did affect performance. I'm thinking - possibly erroneously so - that Smith might be thinking of performance rather than proficiency. But that doesn't really jive with his belief system, I don't think. I do know that my teachers who do RMA/RMI's on themselves (minus the retellings) come away with a different view of their own reading prowess. It does shed light on miscues being normal occurrences for all readers. That miscues are just unexpected results while reading as long as comprehension isn't affected (where the 2 retellings come into play). Lots of words to get to the bottom line! I don't find that RMA hinders performance, proficiency, or comprehension. Deb |
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Prisca I'm not sure what Frank Smith thinks about RMA. Yetta will probably know. I think his concern is that too much awareness of the process will interfere with it. When I think about it, I can see how that might happen but, like you, Debbie, that hasn't been my experience yet. As for reading aloud, whether or not I understand depends on the context. If I'm reading to kids, I comprehend. If I'm reading the lessons in church in front of the congregation, I'm so focused on being "correct" that I am not that aware of the 'content'. (I'm impressed you understood while reading in a class!). Prisca |
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Maureen When I went through my first class on Miscue Analysis, there was a period of time where my own reading was affected in the way that Frank Smith mentions. For a while, it was almost frustrating for me because I was too aware of my miscues to focus on getting the message. Being an adult, I was able to “talk myself down” and re-focus and find humor in it. But it made me tremendously aware of this side-effect of RMI, and I have made a conscious effort to be on the look-out for any such interference in my students. While I have not yet had a student experience this side of RMI (it’s been over 20 years since that class), I stay vigilant. I do not use RMI every time we read together. I note some interesting miscues and share them later. It seems to make them more valuable, and keeps the focus on comprehension. I have used RMI with first graders through fifth graders in informal discussions in small groups. The children’s attitudes toward themselves as readers and toward each other as readers changed in many ways. They moved from wanting to correct each other and make fun of each other, to discussions filled with wonderment and awe about what goes on in the brain when one reads. Even the littlest ones become more metacognitive; the older ones found humor in the discussions. They also began to listen for my miscues when I read aloud and we discussed those with the same interest. It freed them from having to read every word correctly and focus more on understanding the message. RMI also changes the tone of the classroom environment to a positive place of learning from a punitive, “must always be correct” feeling.
And that’s my testimonial! |
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Prisca I agree that it's not wise to use RMI or RMA every time kids read. That would become tedious. As a "miscueteer" with miscue ears and eyes, keeping track of a few good miscues, like you're doing, to discuss later is great. I too have found that kids become much more respectful of each other as readers when they understand what miscues are. I discussed with the boys I worked with that the reader is responsible for his reading and they really honored and respected each other, wanting to give the reader time and opportunity to think without interrupting them. I was almost "surprised" by how quickly the boys caught onto that and stopped jumping in as soon as they heard a miscue. They did focus more on making sense and understanding their reading, like you said. Thanks for the insights! Prisca |
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Deb I have to admit...it was a methodology class - theory first then practice...this was theory...Habermas I think...and it was the umpteenth time I had read it - silently until this one. I, too, didn't focus solely on comprehension while I was reading it aloud this time due to the number of times I had already read it and I did concentrate on 'saying the words correctly' praying that I wouldn't flub up too badly. I'm pretty sure that I focused more on oral performance than on meaning making and perhaps my analogy isn't quite the right one to use...and besides the prof is one of those special teachers with whom you feel safe with no matter what. This brings up another issue, too. The issue of being able to concentrate solely on one aspect of the reading process vs. just being immersed in the process. When I'm immersed in the reading I move between the aspects of the process rather seamlessly. Comprehension is 'tuned into' when I'm not understanding the language of the sentence or used in the sentence (syntax and/or semantic terms and their layout in the sentence - my predictions aren't being confirmed). When I'm just focusing on comprehension then I fine tune my focus... Not sure if I've rambled on to something important or mundane... Deb |
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Michele I often ponder the 'performance' aspect of a student reading aloud (especially when students are using sign language). I agree that too much awareness can interfere with performance and comprehension. But that "window" into the student's thinking is so valuable. It is only through discussion with the student about what they are thinking, about the miscues, sign choices and a discussion about the text that the teacher knows what was comprehended. Students who are not camera shy soon get over 'performing' but there is a difference reading for an audience vs. reading for yourself. Unfortunately many of my students don't choose to read for themselves, they read in class and for class. So the performance becomes a huge part of the reading process. My goal is to get kids to read for understanding AND for pleasure.
Michele Gennaoui
mgennaoui@sfdesales.org |
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Yetta
This is a very important issue Michele. Many of us believe that we spend too much time on "performance" and not on encouraging kids to do a lot of silent reading. Fluency tests leave kids with the idea that accurate oral reading is what reading is all about. We use oral reading in miscue analysis because we can't get into the head to analyze silent reading. We need to tell our kids this. That we expect them to make miscues when they read orally because we do too. But performance in reading is one aspect of reading orally that we should think about more, too. Reading aloud well is a special ability. It is a dramatic art and like story telling and script readings, etc. it needs to be practiced and criteria set up with the kids as to how it is done to influence audiences. When I taught children's literature, I always included a section on how to read aloud with expression. But silent reading is what we should be doing most of the time with all of our students and this should be a major part of a reading curriculum in every classroom. Even first graders should be encouraged to read silently although they often will read silently aloud. IEP's should include ample time for silent reading. Yetta..... |
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Yvonne Right on. Yetta offers more good advice and information. There is a huge difference between reading orally and reading silently. Most don't understand this difference. But miscue analysis can give one useful information into the silent reading process. As many said earlier, when we teachers read out loud, we make miscues. My students and I read together, and they always catch my miscues, though the ones they make pass right by, because they make sense. I often use performance reading - reading a speech, a poem, singing a song to a REAL audience - to help students become better at performance reading. In fact, in performance reading, we put in pauses, emphasize certain words, look up at the audience, slow down during certain parts, etc. Also, to do performance reading well, one must really understand the message in order to convey meaning. They teach courses in ORAL INTERPRETATION at the university level. Hope this helps. Yvonne Siu-Runyan |
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Alan Michele, I think you're so right. I think a difference has to be drawn between 'performance' and the underlying competence that we infer from performance. I think about this connection with our conversation about DIBELS and other quick oral reading measures that have us focus on fluency and accuracy. I'm keenly aware of how misleading a single performance can be--or a set of performances if taken on a misleading measure such as DIBELS. I continually deal with readers who read very slowly and haltingly and who produce a relatively large number of low quality miscues. On the basis of these performances, these readers don't sound like they would be understanding what they read. But when the time comes for a retelling, these readers can talk about what they've just read in great detail. Certain reading assessments like DIBELS actually construct performances that mask an underlying competence that can be observed in other ways. Like through kidwatching. Alan |
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Bonita I continually deal with readers who read very slowly and haltingly and who produce a relatively large number of low quality miscues. On the basis of these performances, these readers don't sound like they would be understanding what they read. But when the time comes for a retelling, these readers can talk about what they've just read in great detail. Isn't that the strangest thing; I have noted the same. I wonder if the brain is working overtime to both do quality miscues in the inner voice while doing misleading reading with the outer voice... how else does one understand after reading something with numerous incorrect choices throughout? Bonita |
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Yetta I think, Bonita, that they are comprehending across the text... building toward a meaningful whole. And this happens especially if what they are reading is inspiring, relevant, interesting (not for the teacher) for the reader. One of our colleagues, Peter Duckett, calls this "working at reading". The readers we are most concerned about are working much harder than our proficient readers. If they are instruction dependent personalities they sound out, look for little words in big words, look at the beginning and ends of words, try to read fast, try not to omit but they also are making sense for themselves. Through RMA we can help readers not work so hard. I'm often amazed how hard so many kids keep working at their reading. I want them to find some of their reading challenging so they can establish a sense of their accomplishment in doing so. These are the readers I would especially encourage to read silently more so they don't have to focus on oral performance in addition to making sense for themselves. But we should also encourage reading of easy, simple materials for the reader, too. Musicians love to work at challenging pieces but they relax as they play over and over again pieces that are fun and easy and relaxing......... I believe that we are probably less aware of our miscues when we read silently than when we read orally because we are reading for our own personal meaning. We have a lot to learn about how the brain takes in all this information, assimilates it and accommodates it (Piaget) to the knowledge already established. But that is going on whenever there is a meaningful transaction with a written text.............. Reading is learning. Yetta |
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Deb Bonita,
Deb |
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Bonita Ha ha! Yes, I guess I have much more to learn about miscues versus mistakes. But truly, I am sure you have had a student read a complete passage and you have wondered from all the miscues whether they got anything out of it at all, and they pop up with a perfect interpretation--leaves me puzzled. I think the mind is multitasking. Why not? |
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Deb Alan’s message makes me rethink my thinking....what I think I tell my students (preservice/inservice teachers or adults/children whom I tutor in English or reading or...) is that reading aloud gives all of us a chance to see how the reader is thinking while reading, what any "oops's" may tell us, and then gives us a place to figure out how to support the reader if they need it. I stress that we all make oops's and they are natural and it is through them that we learn. For most of my preservice/inservice teachers - even those who have had methods classes at my university since Jerry & Carolyn have retired have no real idea what RMI/RMA is, what it can show you, and why it is so important. It is so hard for preservice teachers to really grasp the importance of this assessment tool because it is usually new information and a different perspective on teaching and learning. Yet, we are just now going to see kids who have gone through 6 years of NCLB phonics blitz and DIBELS testing. I think our dropout rates are going to soar through the roof in the next 3 years. Not quite sure where all of my ramblings fit in but it certainly spurred my thinking. Deb |
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Heidi Deb, Based on what I am seeing at the secondary level, I think dropout rates are already soaring fueled by NCLB, high-stakes testing, and oppressive top-down language and education policies. That’s why it’s so important to get the word out about RMI and RMA. Ken’s work on revaluing reading and readers is critical at this juncture—especially for urban youth and English Language Learners. Heidi |
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Deb Heidi, I guess it hasn't really hit full force in rural areas in the middle of the country yet. But I could be mistaken. We have a lot of migrant farm workers so I'm not sure about the kids (and I sort live between 2 communities - one where I work and go to school and one where I live). Our rates - depending on the formula - have remained about the same. Deb |
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Heidi Deb, I don't remember where you are, but does your state have a graduation test? Also, Bill Daggett's organization keeps up-to-date statistics--they are very sad, especially for Latino/a, African American, and Native youth. Heidi |
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Leslie In NYC we need to make a choice about what kind of assessments to use "periodically" through the year. DIBELS is an option, as is DRA, Fountas and PInnell, or TCRWP (Teachers College). If anyone has any knowledge and/or experience with any of these please let me know. Thanks, Leslie |
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Hugo It is so hard for preservice teachers to really grasp the importance of this assessment tool because it is usually new information and a different perspective on teaching and learning. Most people on this list are experienced teachers who have seen another way than the DIBELS, NCLB, scripted schemes and so on. It is much more difficult for the novice teacher who is relatively disempowered, in my view. This could explain why RMA does not even seem to be a valid assessment to them. It is certainly a philosophically utterly different perspective. As we say in Britain "you can say that again!".
Hugo
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Deb
Good point about
this listserv, Hugo. While I wrote preservice I was thinking that this
past semester I had some graduate level transition to teaching students
enrolled in my online graduate level courses, too, who were 'preservice'
teachers. That said they were much more open than my undergrad students
(last time I taught undergrads was in 2004/2005 - not sure which
year...). Most of them have stayed linked to this listserv even now...I
wonder if age, life experiences, and life philosophies played into this
openenss. Now that I write this I'm thinking Thanks, Deb |
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Heidi Hugo, I think that one of the issues for beginning teachers is access to RMA and mentors. Often if pre-service teachers did not learn RMI or RMA in their teacher preparation courses, they will need to enroll in grad school to gain an understanding of the theory and practice, and when I took RMA, it was a 700-level course. I think I might have been the only master’s student at the time. I hope that with all of the really knowledgeable practitioners on this listserve, we will be able to get more literature out into the field and serve as mentors for beginning teachers. Thank you for your thoughtful posts! Heidi |
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Yvonne Do any of you remember the days when we had to read a paragraph from the basal reader? I am so old I remember the entire class taking out the basal. The teacher would have each student read a paragraph. Well, I was so nervous, like the other kids, that I would count down to the paragraph I knew I would have to read. Of course, I paid no attention to the other kids. Then when it was my turn, I read the paragraph precisely. However, I never knew what the message was. I work with a fourth grader, and her parents insist that she read every word perfectly, and that if she doesn't know a word she has to sound it out. When I first started working with her, she stumbled a lot and her mouth would get dry from the anxiety. So, when I knew she would stumble across a word, I would just tell her the word. Then I told her that what she was reading should make sense. I taught her how to ask the two important questions: Does what I am reading making sense? And does what I am reading sound like language? Her parents told me that she is now a reading machine and gobbles up books. We also do a lot of writing. She has written a story about her babysitter and is going to give this story as a birthday gift to her babysitter. This child uses incredibly complex words and sentences. So, she is reading complex sentence structure and vocabulary considered to be adult type words. For her mother's birthday, we looked at poetry about mothers. She read the poems, and chose her favorites. Then she wrote a poem for her mother's birthday. We are not done with the story about her babysitter or the book of poems for her mother's birthday, because we talked about the importance of having distance from what one is writing. She has already revised the story about her babysitter several times, changing order, taking away, changing sentence structure and also words. For the poetry book for her mother, she has changed the order of the poems. This child is thinking about making changes in the poem she wrote for her mother. Oh, the power of MEANING in learning cannot be dismissed. Today, another fourth grade boy and his team just won the soccer tournament. He is writing a story about how he played 5 games in 5 hours after school. The word Boulder is used in his story. So, the last 5 minutes, we spend looking at the words: Boulder, boulder. bolder, colder, could, principal, and principle. These were the words he wanted to focus on spelling. We talked about how so many spelling rules do not fit. One of my high school seniors put together an Anime comic book about homosexuality for her graduation culminating project. For this, she had to read books about homosexuality, decide on the characters, plot, theme, and sequence of events. When she presented the project for senior exhibition day, she told the audience that one of things she learned was how to spell, punctuate, show her characters by what they say and do, as well as think about themes in books. When meaning is the center of learning, students do amazing things. Hope you enjoyed the anecdotes. Go group!!!!! Miscue analysis rocks. Yvonne Siu-Runyan |
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Yetta Yvonne reminds us of the important relationship between reading and writing. Thanks for the anecdotes....... yetta |
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George Perhaps it is important to differentiate between proficient/strategic readers and less proficient/struggling readers in a discussion of Frank Smith's caution re: readers becoming overly conscious of process. RMA is, in my view, an excellent strategy to "demystify" (Y. Goodman's term, I believe) the reading process for less proficient/struggling readers who oftentimes read as if meaning was their last concern. Indeed, they often overuse graphophonic cues and underutilize semantic/syntactic cues as they attempt to process meaningful textual discourse. This is most likely (says the research and my own personal experience) an artifact of their instructional history ("you get what you teach!"). These readers do not (regularly) self-monitor or self-correct their semantically unacceptable miscues. RMA is an excellent way to "raise their consciousness level" and, by so doing, make them "privy to process." Simply stated, they learn that reading is, in fact, a "psycholinguistic guessing game" (K. Goodman) where the reader takes risks and orchestrates the use of all three language cueing systems as he/she transacts with text. Now the question becomes, should proficient/strategic readers ALSO be made conscious of underlying cognitive/linguistic processes? The neurologists would respond that automatic processes should not be mediated. Edmund Burke Huey perhaps said it best when discussing reading processes: "...it's kind of like log rolling, all one has to do is to think about that which he/she is doing and he/she is sure to fall off!" (a paraphrase...but close to the actual verbiage). Hooray E.B. Huey...perhaps the FIRST psycholinguist!!
George J. Cavuto, Ph.D. |
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Deb I have to admit that I am chuckling! Huey may be one of the 1st psycholinguists...When we bring in the historical aspect of our knowledge about the reading process it really shows the depth of theories that support different theoretical camps and their practices. I like Gadamer's quote that "When you take a word in your mouth, you have not taken up some arbitrary tool which can be thrown in a corner if it doesn't do the job, but you are committed to a line of thought that comes from afar and reaches beyond you." (Truth & Method, 1989, p. 547-548). We are part of a thought collective (Carolyn Burke's term) whose history directs its present and future course. Regardless of which thought collective one belongs to this is true. Nice post. I really like your thinking! Deb |
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Hugo should proficient/strategic readers ALSO be made conscious of underlying cognitive/linguistic processes? The neurologists would respond that automatic processes should not be mediated. I think a major educational issue yet to be properly addressed is precisely the direction of the conscious. There is very good evidence that indeed you get what you teach - especially the weaker student is likely to learn and then stick absolutely with the strategy they were initially taught (and this is usually precisely grapho-phonic reading - sounding out). It is still very unclear what the conscious is for (it being small, serial, plodding and inherently secondary to the wonderful unconscious). The best teaching, it seems to me, directs people's consciousness at the real-world and the meaningful - exactly what, for example, RMA does. The purpose and the real. The thrust of learning is precisely to make as much detail as possible automatic (we all do spelling without conscious thought, for instance, while our conscious minds are away among issues like meaning and pizzazz). The last thing we want to do is reverse this! If anyone is interested in consciousness and learning, the notes to chapter 6 in my book which can be found on the website below cover as far as I have got to date in thinking about this headache-inducing subject. The book is some 117,000 words long so takes a few seconds to download.
Hugo
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Michele I have used miscue analysis with deaf readers for many years as an assessment tool. I taught teachers in my school how to use miscue analysis to plan reading lessons and write IEP objectives. It was as if only the teachers had the knowledge. It was only when I began using RMA and we invited students in the process as well that students began to build self confidence and become more thoughtful readers. Often when we began RMA and students watched themselves read (on videotape) they saw miscues in a negative light. One of the first times I used RMA in a small class of second grade deaf students I showed one student reading. She paused before an unknown word and her response was "I didn't know it." She was very embarrassed. I was afraid that this session would hurt her self esteem. We rewound the tape and looked again at the same clip. I asked the class to look at the all the things she was doing. We looked closely and I directed the students to watch her eyes and we noticed that the reader was looking up at the picture, an EXCELLENT reading strategy, she then looked left and we could see that she was rereading the text, another EXCELLENT reading strategy. She was using her finger to track the print. Soon the students were finding things that I had missed. The reader was using great reading strategies and the rest of the class could also use those strategies when they came to a tricky word. Before the end of the lesson we generated a list of reading strategies that good readers use. The student's affect changed dramatically and "I didn't know" became, "I know what to do when I don't know a word." She developed confidence and became aware that she was actively trying to solve a new word. As we continued with RMA sessions with this class, all the students were eager for the class to watch them on video. Looking for a reading strategy that we did not already have on the list became a goal. The reading strategy list became part of their vocabulary and they became metalinguistic.
Michele Gennaoui |
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Prisca What you're doing is so exciting, Michele! When kids feel "safe" like they do with you and your other students, they're not afraid or intimidated by having others watch them read and talk about what they do as readers. You help them know what to look for and pay attention to. The kids know they're going to be "built up" and not "torn down." They see that they are no different than other readers and that ALL of them are SMART, capable, and have numerous strengths! I love the goal of finding new strategies to add to the list!!! Prisca
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Yvonne Hooray for you, Michele. You did good. What a great teacher you must be. Yvonne Siu-Runyan |
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Roxanne I am a literacy coach and have just begun working with a fourth grade student who tested on the DRA2 at level 12 Independent (mid first grade). He is new in our school and it seems that he has been moved from school to school by mom to avoid "labeling" him as Special Ed. Mom told me he was diagnosed with a learning disability and agreed to let me work with him since I'm a Reading Specialist and not a Sp Ed teacher. I've worked with this student 4 times and think I've been doing something like RMA. This discussion will help me be more intentional about helping him understand the strengths he has as a reader. So far I've focused on helping my student understand that he has (as I put it to him) 2 brains - a reading brain that tends to play tricks on him (all he's been taught to do so far is "sound out" words and this is what he thinks he should do when he reads thus my labeling this as his reading brain) and a smart brain that can help out his reading brain. Of course what I'm doing is teaching him to use meaning (his smart brain) along with visual (his reading brain) but what has amazed me is just what this tln discussion is pointing out - that helping this student understand how his reading "works" as opposed to just prompting him to use all 3 cueing systems can be very powerful. He is now reading Frog and Toad (level 19 - instructional level for him) and his teacher reports that he is actually reading during independent reading in class. One thing I have done with him is point out how his reading brain reads "who" for "how" by writing both words on a whiteboard so he can see the "trick" his reading brain is playing on him and how his smart brain can listen to and check on what his reading brain is doing. I've also helped him decide if his reading brain is making him read something he knows isn't quite the word on the page, his smart brain can decide if the word he wants to read is okay (a substitution that makes sense) and he can go on. He now thinks he can learn to read (and, I've also been telling him that if he continues to read things that aren't too hard his smart brain will help him teach himself to read). We're both having fun! Roxanne Wilderman |
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Prisca It sounds like you're using some principles of RMA, Roxanne. You're helping your student think about what he's doing and focusing him on making sense as he reads. Maybe you can think about helping him see that he has one smart reading brain and point out the smart strategies he uses when he reads. For example, when he makes a prediction that isn't going to make sense and then corrects that miscue, that's a smart strategy! That's what good readers do. Another smart strategy you've already pointed out to him is making a meaningful substitution. It's always exciting to see kids catch on, gain confidence, and READ more! That's how they become more proficient readers. Prisca |
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Wendy
Hello all, I am an 8th grade English teacher in NYC and I have been following the discussion all day. I find it fascinating that so many of us forget that reading is as much an emotional task as well as an intellectual one. I'm referring to the level of praise we provide for our students, particularly the struggling readers. Although I do praise my students as often as possible, it rarely occurs to me to praise them for a miscue! What I'm reading in this discussion makes perfect sense - if students make a perfectly acceptable miscue, syntactically, graphophonically or any other way - they should be praised for the "brilliant" thinking that is going on during the reading process. As a reading teacher, I always wondered why our students who made reasonable substitutions in the reading process were always so anxious about correcting. Now I understand that it comes more from a fear of being "wrong" and their lack of confidence as readers, rather than their weaknesses. I'm going to change the way I praise my readers. Thank you! Wendy
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Prisca You're so right! Sometimes teachers, parents, etc., do forget the 'emotional' side of reading. Readers have to believe they CAN read. If they don't believe that, they're not very likely to try because they believe they won't be successful. Often kids who are struggling only hear about the 'mistakes' they make which isn't very inspiring to them. Helping them see that the correction they just made when what they read wasn't making sense or the meaningful substitution they made is what ALL good readers do is powerful! They already know and do what good readers do - they just need to practice doing it more often. All students do need praise but when the praise is connected to something specific the reader did (like a miscue), it's all the more meaningful. We need to use terms like "brilliant" with all kids because that's what they are. There isn't only one way to be "brilliant" or "smart". (I just bought a new picture book about a variety of people who are smart in a range of different ways.) One more thing you might consider is to share some of your own miscues with your students. If you make a miscue while reading aloud to them, when you finish, talk about it with them. Or, bring in a miscue you made while reading at home the night before and talk about what you did and why. (It might be easiest to write it on the board for them to see) That way the kids see that you make miscues too and you use the exact same strategies they do! Keep us posted on how things are going! Prisca |
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Kaye Prisca, Would you share the name of the picture book you referred to - about people who are smart in different ways? Thanks - already a great conversation! Kaye Marshall |
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Prisca Here's the info on the book, Kaye: How We Are Smart, by W. Nikola-Lisa, illus by S. Qualls, published by Lee & Low Books, 2006. It has a poem, followed by a brief biography for such people as Marian Anderson, Maria Tallchief, Georgia O'Keefe, and Matthew Henson. In the back it talks about multiple intelligences, etc. It's a pretty neat book. Prisca |
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Wendy
Prisca, After reading your response to my posting, I realize that once I make my students aware of what miscues are and explain to them that it’s not always necessary to correct, they begin to catch me making miscues. I never captured these as “teachable moments” but I will now. I think it’s a great idea to write them down side by side and have the kids analyze why they think I might have made the mistake. I think it’s a wonderful way to open their eyes to how our brains work when we read. It will likely go a long way toward helping them understand not only that every reader (even an experienced, confident one like the teacher) makes miscues and that it’s not necessarily a bad thing. Thanks for the suggestion – too bad it’s the end of the school year – I can’t wait to try it out! Wendy |
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Prisca
Hi, Wendy - While jumping on every teachable moment might get "distracting", taking advantage of some is definitely important. Kids, especially the ones who are struggling, think no one makes miscues but them. Having a teacher and other stronger readers openly talk about their miscues and the strengths they show can be very freeing, especially as these kids realize they make the same kinds of miscues. You may not have lots of opportunities now for these discussions but there's always next year. It's important to remember too that the point is not that the readers eventually "get the word right" that's in the text. The point is that they are working to making sense. Sometimes that means they'll correct a miscue that doesn't make sense, sometimes it means they won't correct a miscue that does make sense, and sometimes, if the text is particularly difficult, they may use some other strategy like omitting it and continuing to read. Those kinds of efficient strategies need to be validated too. I've used that last strategy many times myself in my reading - chances are you have too. Prisca |
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Hugo Have the kids analyze why they think I might have made the mistake...helping them understand not only that every reader (even an experienced, confident one like the teacher) makes miscues and that it’s not necessarily a bad thing. I teach in ABE (adult literacy, in an
earlier era) and a major issue at the beginning is precisely to get
students to view their "mistakes" in a positive light. A miscue which
retains the contextual meaning is cause, of course, for congratulations
and a gold clock as it reveals that reading has become meaning-making.
But even "mistakes" which are errors (especially is this so with
spelling) are the highly personalised information we need to progress -
truly formative assessment. Students need, if not to love, at least to
be passionately interested in their "mistakes". I make all mine up front
and it really helps this process. (ABE students are often incredulous
that people like me actually make mistakes at all - a fact they urgently
need to appreciate!) Hugo |
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Prisca
I agree, Hugo! One of my favorite sayings is "Every professional was once an amateur." You don't learn to ride a bike without falling off or swim without sinking. It takes practice and not being afraid to look for better ways to do what you're doing to improve. Prisca |
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Yetta Hugo..... You have good insights into your own and your student's responses. If you can find a copy of Retrospective Miscue Analysis by Ann Marek and me (it's a RCOwen book but out of print) you'll find some great stories about adult readers being influenced by RMA. These readers become empowered as they realize that their miscues are based on their own knowledge and background. I could provide a few examples if you ask more about this. In your piece, I'm not sure what mistakes are errors...... I have learned that all shifts away from conventional or expected responses are based on knowledge. So they are responses or different cues than the ones I might use. Sometimes as I discuss such responses with my readers, I find out that they really are on the right track but it is different from mine. I want learners especially adults to know that "mistakes" are not made because they need to be fixed. They are made as a result of thoughtful responses that are based on different interpretations than the responses of others .... Yetta |
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Deb
Hugo's post made me think beyond 'reading' to the content areas. I have found two related things in my work with both teachers and kids. First when the teacher develops a miscue "eye and ear" then the kids learn to value themselves as readers (what everyone here is saying happens - nothing new) but what amazed me was the transformation of these kids when it came to other content areas. Those who learned to understand that mistakes weren't really mistakes but opportunties to figure out how to make meaning from text began to apply this mindset to math...to science...to social studies...etc. The errors were no longer errors (despite some of their teachers tendencies to keep saying they were) but the kids intuitively knew that these miscues were where the learning process broke down and it was ok. The questions and confusions about the topic, let's say math, began at the point of the miscue and began to stop making sweeping generalizations that it was all wrong. Rather they became more confident in what they could do right and worked hard to figure out where they went down a path that didn't work well. Just thinking aloud here. Deb |
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Prisca
That's exciting to hear, Debbie! When kids can take what they learn and do in one setting and use it in another, you know they've internalized it. The understandings about reading and themselves as readers, the confidence, and the responsibility for their own learning take over and that's what we want!!! Prisca |
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Heidi Hi Hugo, Thank you for sharing your experiences with your adult education, ABE, learners. I, too, taught in ABE at one time. In fact, my work in ABE was what inspired me to enroll in a master’s program in Language, Reading and Culture. I was actively seeking a better way to teach reading. From my experience, the ABE students with whom I worked thought they were “bad” readers because they didn’t spell very well. They held a word-centered view of the reading process and believed that reading was producing an exact rendering of text. They stopped reading because they thought there was something wrong with them because they didn’t spell well, couldn’t pronounce all of the words they encountered, and “read it wrong.” Ken Goodman explains this much better in the following quote: “Every word becomes a major obstacle to be identified before going on. The reader suffers from the ‘next-word syndrome;’ each unconquered word is a symbol |
of
course it would make them more open!