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Online discussion about Retrospective Miscue Analysis Helping Readers Revalue Reading, Transcript © 2008 by Richard C. Owen Publishers, Inc. All rights reserved. Permission is granted to print, copy, or transmit this transcript for personal use only, provided this entire copyright statement is included. This transcript, in part or in whole, may not otherwise be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electrical or mechanical, including inclusion in a book or article, recording, or by any information storage and retrieval system, without permission in writing from the publisher. |
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Richard
Good evening folks, Richard
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Vicki Before I became a literacy coach, I engaged 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade readers in RMA through a collaborative learning process in the classroom. The first year I tried RMA, I engaged only four readers, all struggling for various reasons, in the process. Because of the powerful way in which the students changed as readers, I then tried the process with all readers in my 3rd grade classroom (I did have a small group of 14). Even the confident readers learned about themselves as readers in ways that we would not have been able to "get at" if we had not engaged in the process. RMA allows teachers to know their students in ways not possible through other kinds of assessment.
Vicki Seeger |
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Prisca WOW, Vicki! I'm interested in knowing more about how you used RMA with your 3rd grade class. I also used it with a class of 15 students, all being retained in 3rd grade because of test scores. I worked with the kids individually and then, with their permission, played parts of their tapes for the others in the class to show the brilliant strategies they were using as they read. We had some incredible discussions. Last year I worked with four 3rd grade boys who were struggling. Sometimes we listened to the tape of them or another reader and sometimes we talked about miscues that they made as we were reading together in the group. That too worked really well. In both cases we focused on miscues that showed the readers' strengths and the students' reading and understanding improved as well as their confidence in themselves (and others) as readers. Please share what you did with your students. Thanks! Prisca |
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Vicki Rita Moore and I are writing a book about the research we did in my classroom with this third grade group. I was able to schedule the collaborative RMA groups around my guided reading groups and Writing Workshop, so that I met with each group at least once a week, sometimes twice. The conversations in the groups were powerful. It depended on the strength of the group how much I had to facilitate, but they were generally student-led discussions about the miscues and retellings. Every student was able to complete 3-4 readings within the semester we conducted our research, and thus, we were also able to have 3-4 discussions for each student within the group. I am just completing the coursework for my doctorate, and my dissertation topic and research will be centered on a collaborative RMA process. v.
Vicki Seeger |
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Heidi Vicki, Thank you for sharing your incredible experiences with RMA. I use RMA with adolescent readers working in collaborative groups, and the rich discussions never fail to amaze me. I will be looking for your book. When do you think it will be ready for publication? Thank you, Heidi
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Vicki Heidi, The book will be published with Corwin. We are scheduled for a January 09 publication date. That seems like a long way off right now, but given how fast this school year has passed, I know it will be here before I know. Are you working on your dissertation research in this area, too? And, will you be at the WLU Conference in July? Rita and I are presenting on another research project related to my classroom students and her preservice teachers engaging in a pen pal project together. Vicki |
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Heidi Hi Vicki, Thank you for the information. There needs to be more literature in the field about RMA. I am in awe of the experience and expertise of the respondents to this online discussion. I have just begun my doctorate, so dissertation seems a long way off; however, I have been using Collaborative Retrospective Miscue Analysis in my secondary classroom with urban youth who are struggling readers for the past five years. I am hoping to use CRMA in my dissertation work. I am also interested in spatial practices (Sheehy and Leander) and reader response and looking for ways that tie these threads together in my work with urban youth. I will be at WLU in July. I am presenting my work on CRMA with Yetta, Prisca, etc. I would enjoy meeting you and hearing more about your work. Heidi |
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Yetta Vicki.... I also look forward to your book. We need to flood the reading field with the stories of our experiences with readers. As you know Rita Moore also has a book coauthored with Carol Gilles, Reading Conversations: Retrospective Miscue Analysis for Struggling Readers 4-12. I think it is on the reference list at the end of the article Richard Owen posted before the beginning of this discussion. Yetta....... Y |
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Yvonne I have written this before. But, I want to emphasize that I didn't really understand the reading process from the inside out until I learned about miscue analysis. But somehow I knew that teaching kids phonics rules didn't work. So, I just gave them great literature to read, involved them in grand conversations, and had them help one another, and didn't have round robin reading or high, medium, and low reading groups. Yvonne Siu-Runyan |
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Marti I find the comments and information about the use of RMA with older readers just fascinating. It makes so much sense! My former district was really attached to using scripted synthetic phonics programs with struggling middle schoolers. I found and find the idea really horrific. Reading has always been a meaning making process for me. I am so heartened to hear what is being done with older students. Marti in NH |
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Cindy I have not tried RMA with my fifth grade students, but I am always looking for ways to make sure I help them become great readers by increasing their fluency and comprehension. For the past three years, my colleagues and I have worked on strategies to get our students to respond to literature with depth and complexity using GATE icons. I look forward to learning more about RMA. I like the idea of using it with four to five struggling students as I usually have about 30 students in my classroom.
Cindy Hallman |
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Prisca Good Morning Cindy and all! I'm looking forward to interacting with you and everyone over the next several days about RMA. My experiences with it have been incredible. It's a powerful way to engage students into thinking about their own reading and revalue reading and themselves as readers. Please tell us more about your struggling students. Prisca |
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Jeanne Good Morning, As a Title 1 Reading Specialist I've been using Miscue Analysis with my fifth grade students for years. I've always shared the analysis with students along with metacognitive strategies, because I think we teach reading according to our theory of how reading works. I recognize that not all students learn to read the same way that I did so I don't want to ignore any strategy, but it is a process. Once students have learned to read, being aware of how they are reading-that standing in the back of your mind observing what you are doing while you are doing it-is invaluable to reading to learn. My use of miscue analysis has been primarily unstructured and pretty much on an "in the teachable moment" event-while DIBELING or any time a student is reading out loud. The practice has been very effective. It seems that there might be value in formalizing this process. What are the questions that are asked of the reader (p. 8)? I'm eager for replies. Jeanne |
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Prisca The general questions we use are a little further on in the chapter. The idea is to get readers to revalue what they do when they read so they see the strengths they already have. Basically, we ask the readers if what they read made sense, if they corrected it, and if they needed to correct it for meaning. Below I'm pasting part of an RMA discussion I had with some 3rd grade boys (Ben, Ron, Nate, and Kyle). It's hard to paste this in because of formatting, etc., so I hope it makes sense. It gives the general flow of an RMA discussion (although discussions with older readers could be much more in depth). This snippet of discussion is about this sentence: "He also said to watch out for the books on his desk." Ron was the reader and read: "He also said to which...watch out for his books on his desk." After playing the tape: Ben: He said "which". It's not a perfect discussion but you can see how it focuses the readers on making sense and on revaluing themselves as readers. What kinds of questions do you use with your students? Prisca |
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Marti Prisca, Thank you for this example of am RMA discussion. I read the chapter and did not get a sense of how the RMA could fit easily into the busy primary classroom. I initially had the sense it had to be a very formalized pull-out type of experience. I can really see a classroom teacher pulling a small group together at a table to have this discussion. I can also see how the planning can occur very naturally using the teaching, learning cycle. I am wondering if the questions would ever be used more informally after listening to a child read a selection. After the reading, going back into the text and drawing the child's attention to a miscue and asking the questions. Or is the tape recording really critical? I like the empowering quality of the process. My personal reaction is that RMA would not interfere with comprehension. I know that when I was practicing the use of comprehension strategies discussed by Keene/Zimmerman, I did not suddenly think about how I was reading every time I read a Robert Ludlum thriller. I do think that I was more aware of how I was increasing comprehension when I read a more difficult text such as Pamuk's, My Name is Red. I am thinking that the same would hold for RMA. I particularly like the idea that everyone makes miscues. Thinking about this conversation, I was aware today when I read " The racing water rushed Owen" instead of "The racing water washed Owen" as I was reading Owen and Mzee to a group of second graders. Often when reading orally I will make miscues that do not effect the meaning and I can just go on. This time I corrected as the miscue was not helpful as I finished the sentence. When I do something like that should I comment on the miscue at the time or does that interfere with the flow of the story and the students' own meaning making? Might I go back at the end of the story and say something like, “I want to remind you of how I miscued here and decided to correct as I did not think my miscue helped with the meaning making." I am reading the Reading Miscue Inventory as I participate in this discussion as I have not had experience with miscue analysis, only the analysis of running records. So, I am not coming to this discussion with a great deal of background. Marti in NH |
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Prisca Hi, Marti - There certainly are occasions you may want to formally tape a child reading and have a one-on-one session to discuss miscues. That may even be helpful if you're new to RMA and need a deeper understanding of the process yourself. Lots of teachers have probably been doing more "informal" RMA in classrooms for decades without realizing it. You're right - it can occur very naturally. The advantage of the tape recording is that it's "documented" evidence of the miscue. Many times readers won't be aware of their miscues, especially if they are high quality miscues. The example I posted was based on students listening to a tape. I have other examples where that wasn't the case, though. The reader talked about what he/she did while reading and others responded, sometimes with miscues the reader missed. As for discussing miscues, there probably isn't a hard and fast "rule". Stopping as soon as you make the miscue would definitely interrupt the flow of the story but waiting might mean the children don't really remember. Reminding them helps, though. I've done it both ways, depending on the situation/context. Others may have other suggestions. I'm glad to hear you're reading the RMI book!!! Please don't hesitate to bring any questions to us that you may have. You need a real understanding of that to fully understand RMA. Prisca |
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Michele In my experience when students are reading for meaning and not dwelling on their miscues they often don't recall having trouble with a word. So I prefer documenting with a recording. It is important to show the students what good reading looks like and watch when they are brilliant. It also serves as a model to the rest of the class.
Michele Gennaoui,
mgennaoui@sfdesales.org |
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Hugo In what way does conscious knowledge and understanding about strategies and process have impact on the way students approach reading? In a way what I want to say is peripheral to the main subject, in a way not. The word I want to emphasize is conscious. RMA as described in the article is an open, democratic process engendering mutual thought about praxis and learning - it is meta-cognition writ rather large. Meta-learning, perhaps. The conscious (which is a small and rather ponderous facility of uncertain purpose compared to the unconscious) is being directed at the meta- of life, to the frameworks and real world structures. This is exactly where it belongs. I believe it to be a stunning example of a cognitively suited, mentally correct approach which produces long-lasting (everlasting) effects. I have used it (much less formally) for years. I think one of its main strengths is that it treats students as people who can and must contribute to their own learning, their own growth - as subjects rather than objects. Hugo |
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Alan Greetings everyone, I'd like to respond to something Hugo just wrote: "RMA as described in the article is an open, democratic process engendering mutual thought about praxis and learning..." and that "...one of its main strengths is that it treats students as people who can and must contribute to their own learning, their own growth - as subjects rather than objects." I think these comments hit the mark. I think of RMA as an engagement in which the focus is on a co-exploring of language as used in real reading contexts. Because the focus is on language-in-use, RMA is truly an open sort of inquiry. There are no right answers to the questions about how we use language as we ask, "Why do you think you make this miscue?". Rather, teacher and student jointly make observations and conjectures about how and why reading works. And RMA is democratic in the sense that the conversations that take place when doing RMA move far away from the type of exchanges that are characterized by the transmission of knowledge from teacher to student. Instead, the focus is one of the mutual pursuit of how readers construct meaning as they read. As Yetta and others have written elsewhere, because the focus of conversations (I sometimes use the term mini-lessons) is on the co-exploration of language-in-use, and because these conversations are initiated by observations of readers' linguistic strengths and sense making capabilities (high quality miscues), readers develop a personal stake in the proceedings. The focus shifts away from what a reader might consider punitive ("Here's what you did wrong...") toward a discussion about what readers do as they make sense ("Gee, that was a smart miscue..."). And that includes the production of miscues that demonstrate how readers are focusing on meaning. Alan Alan D. Flurkey |
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Dave Hello everybody, Although someone may have added this thought already as I try to catch up, I do not want to get further along in my reading and forget to add it to the brilliant exchange between Hugo and Alan. While this thought may be implied within Hugo's expression, I would like to add the words "and the creation of their own identity" so that the phrase reads: "...one of its main strengths is that it treats students as people who can and must contribute to their own learning, their own growth, and the creation of their own identity - as subjects rather than objects." With respect, Dave
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Prisca The insights readers gain about reading and themselves as readers through RMA discussions in which they reflect on their own or other readers' miscues are very empowering. Readers move from seeing their "mistakes" as signs of their inabilities to understanding that their miscues are evidence of their thinking and making sense as they read. They are more confident, read more, and grow in their reading proficiency. Frank Smith cautions, though, that being too conscious of the reading process can get in the way of reading proficiency and comprehension. So far I'm not aware of that happening with RMA -Yetta may know more. Prisca |
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Deb I agree with Frank Smith that being too conscious of the reading process may hinder comprehension. There is an analogy that might work here. I've experienced one of those "perfect oral reading" euphoric "in the zone" type of performances for a methodology course I took for my doctorate. I mean I was really "in the zone" - Reggie Miller 8-3 pointers in less than 1 minute and a half (sorry, basketball...Indiana...and perhaps it was 5 not 8...) type of readings. My prof stopped my reading to discuss that section and then proceeded to tell me how beautiful I sounded reading it that I should now finish the passage. Well, needless to say I stumbled, botched, etc. the rest of the passage. It didn't affect comprehension or proficiency but it sure did affect performance. I'm thinking - possibly erroneously so - that Smith might be thinking of performance rather than proficiency. But that doesn't really jive with his belief system, I don't think. I do know that my teachers who do RMA/RMI's on themselves (minus the retellings) come away with a different view of their own reading prowess. It does shed light on miscues being normal occurrences for all readers. That miscues are just unexpected results while reading as long as comprehension isn't affected (where the 2 retellings come into play). Lots of words to get to the bottom line! I don't find that RMA hinders performance, proficiency, or comprehension. Deb |
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Prisca I'm not sure what Frank Smith thinks about RMA. Yetta will probably know. I think his concern is that too much awareness of the process will interfere with it. When I think about it, I can see how that might happen but, like you, Debbie, that hasn't been my experience yet. As for reading aloud, whether or not I understand depends on the context. If I'm reading to kids, I comprehend. If I'm reading the lessons in church in front of the congregation, I'm so focused on being "correct" that I am not that aware of the 'content'. (I'm impressed you understood while reading in a class!). Prisca |
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Maureen When I went through my first class on Miscue Analysis, there was a period of time where my own reading was affected in the way that Frank Smith mentions. For a while, it was almost frustrating for me because I was too aware of my miscues to focus on getting the message. Being an adult, I was able to “talk myself down” and re-focus and find humor in it. But it made me tremendously aware of this side-effect of RMI, and I have made a conscious effort to be on the look-out for any such interference in my students. While I have not yet had a student experience this side of RMI (it’s been over 20 years since that class), I stay vigilant. I do not use RMI every time we read together. I note some interesting miscues and share them later. It seems to make them more valuable, and keeps the focus on comprehension. I have used RMI with first graders through fifth graders in informal discussions in small groups. The children’s attitudes toward themselves as readers and toward each other as readers changed in many ways. They moved from wanting to correct each other and make fun of each other, to discussions filled with wonderment and awe about what goes on in the brain when one reads. Even the littlest ones become more metacognitive; the older ones found humor in the discussions. They also began to listen for my miscues when I read aloud and we discussed those with the same interest. It freed them from having to read every word correctly and focus more on understanding the message. RMI also changes the tone of the classroom environment to a positive place of learning from a punitive, “must always be correct” feeling.
And that’s my testimonial! |
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Prisca I agree that it's not wise to use RMI or RMA every time kids read. That would become tedious. As a "miscueteer" with miscue ears and eyes, keeping track of a few good miscues, like you're doing, to discuss later is great. I too have found that kids become much more respectful of each other as readers when they understand what miscues are. I discussed with the boys I worked with that the reader is responsible for his reading and they really honored and respected each other, wanting to give the reader time and opportunity to think without interrupting them. I was almost "surprised" by how quickly the boys caught onto that and stopped jumping in as soon as they heard a miscue. They did focus more on making sense and understanding their reading, like you said. Thanks for the insights! Prisca |
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Deb I have to admit...it was a methodology class - theory first then practice...this was theory...Habermas I think...and it was the umpteenth time I had read it - silently until this one. I, too, didn't focus solely on comprehension while I was reading it aloud this time due to the number of times I had already read it and I did concentrate on 'saying the words correctly' praying that I wouldn't flub up too badly. I'm pretty sure that I focused more on oral performance than on meaning making and perhaps my analogy isn't quite the right one to use...and besides the prof is one of those special teachers with whom you feel safe with no matter what. This brings up another issue, too. The issue of being able to concentrate solely on one aspect of the reading process vs. just being immersed in the process. When I'm immersed in the reading I move between the aspects of the process rather seamlessly. Comprehension is 'tuned into' when I'm not understanding the language of the sentence or used in the sentence (syntax and/or semantic terms and their layout in the sentence - my predictions aren't being confirmed). When I'm just focusing on comprehension then I fine tune my focus... Not sure if I've rambled on to something important or mundane... Deb |
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Michele I often ponder the 'performance' aspect of a student reading aloud (especially when students are using sign language). I agree that too much awareness can interfere with performance and comprehension. But that "window" into the student's thinking is so valuable. It is only through discussion with the student about what they are thinking, about the miscues, sign choices and a discussion about the text that the teacher knows what was comprehended. Students who are not camera shy soon get over 'performing' but there is a difference reading for an audience vs. reading for yourself. Unfortunately many of my students don't choose to read for themselves, they read in class and for class. So the performance becomes a huge part of the reading process. My goal is to get kids to read for understanding AND for pleasure.
Michele Gennaoui
mgennaoui@sfdesales.org |
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Yetta
This is a very important issue Michele. Many of us believe that we spend too much time on "performance" and not on encouraging kids to do a lot of silent reading. Fluency tests leave kids with the idea that accurate oral reading is what reading is all about. We use oral reading in miscue analysis because we can't get into the head to analyze silent reading. We need to tell our kids this. That we expect them to make miscues when they read orally because we do too. But performance in reading is one aspect of reading orally that we should think about more, too. Reading aloud well is a special ability. It is a dramatic art and like story telling and script readings, etc. it needs to be practiced and criteria set up with the kids as to how it is done to influence audiences. When I taught children's literature, I always included a section on how to read aloud with expression. But silent reading is what we should be doing most of the time with all of our students and this should be a major part of a reading curriculum in every classroom. Even first graders should be encouraged to read silently although they often will read silently aloud. IEP's should include ample time for silent reading. Yetta..... |
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Yvonne Right on. Yetta offers more good advice and information. There is a huge difference between reading orally and reading silently. Most don't understand this difference. But miscue analysis can give one useful information into the silent reading process. As many said earlier, when we teachers read out loud, we make miscues. My students and I read together, and they always catch my miscues, though the ones they make pass right by, because they make sense. I often use performance reading - reading a speech, a poem, singing a song to a REAL audience - to help students become better at performance reading. In fact, in performance reading, we put in pauses, emphasize certain words, look up at the audience, slow down during certain parts, etc. Also, to do performance reading well, one must really understand the message in order to convey meaning. They teach courses in ORAL INTERPRETATION at the university level. Hope this helps. Yvonne Siu-Runyan |
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Alan Michele, I think you're so right. I think a difference has to be drawn between 'performance' and the underlying competence that we infer from performance. I think about this connection with our conversation about DIBELS and other quick oral reading measures that have us focus on fluency and accuracy. I'm keenly aware of how misleading a single performance can be--or a set of performances if taken on a misleading measure such as DIBELS. I continually deal with readers who read very slowly and haltingly and who produce a relatively large number of low quality miscues. On the basis of these performances, these readers don't sound like they would be understanding what they read. But when the time comes for a retelling, these readers can talk about what they've just read in great detail. Certain reading assessments like DIBELS actually construct performances that mask an underlying competence that can be observed in other ways. Like through kidwatching. Alan |
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Bonita I continually deal with readers who read very slowly and haltingly and who produce a relatively large number of low quality miscues. On the basis of these performances, these readers don't sound like they would be understanding what they read. But when the time comes for a retelling, these readers can talk about what they've just read in great detail. Isn't that the strangest thing; I have noted the same. I wonder if the brain is working overtime to both do quality miscues in the inner voice while doing misleading reading with the outer voice... how else does one understand after reading something with numerous incorrect choices throughout? Bonita |
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Yetta I think, Bonita, that they are comprehending across the text... building toward a meaningful whole. And this happens especially if what they are reading is inspiring, relevant, interesting (not for the teacher) for the reader. One of our colleagues, Peter Duckett, calls this "working at reading". The readers we are most concerned about are working much harder than our proficient readers. If they are instruction dependent personalities they sound out, look for little words in big words, look at the beginning and ends of words, try to read fast, try not to omit but they also are making sense for themselves. Through RMA we can help readers not work so hard. I'm often amazed how hard so many kids keep working at their reading. I want them to find some of their reading challenging so they can establish a sense of their accomplishment in doing so. These are the readers I would especially encourage to read silently more so they don't have to focus on oral performance in addition to making sense for themselves. But we should also encourage reading of easy, simple materials for the reader, too. Musicians love to work at challenging pieces but they relax as they play over and over again pieces that are fun and easy and relaxing......... I believe that we are probably less aware of our miscues when we read silently than when we read orally because we are reading for our own personal meaning. We have a lot to learn about how the brain takes in all this information, assimilates it and accommodates it (Piaget) to the knowledge already established. But that is going on whenever there is a meaningful transaction with a written text.............. Reading is learning. Yetta |
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Deb Bonita,
Deb |
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Bonita Ha ha! Yes, I guess I have much more to learn about miscues versus mistakes. But truly, I am sure you have had a student read a complete passage and you have wondered from all the miscues whether they got anything out of it at all, and they pop up with a perfect interpretation--leaves me puzzled. I think the mind is multitasking. Why not? |
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Deb Alan’s message makes me rethink my thinking....what I think I tell my students (preservice/inservice teachers or adults/children whom I tutor in English or reading or...) is that reading aloud gives all of us a chance to see how the reader is thinking while reading, what any "oops's" may tell us, and then gives us a place to figure out how to support the reader if they need it. I stress that we all make oops's and they are natural and it is through them that we learn. For most of my preservice/inservice teachers - even those who have had methods classes at my university since Jerry & Carolyn have retired have no real idea what RMI/RMA is, what it can show you, and why it is so important. It is so hard for preservice teachers to really grasp the importance of this assessment tool because it is usually new information and a different perspective on teaching and learning. Yet, we are just now going to see kids who have gone through 6 years of NCLB phonics blitz and DIBELS testing. I think our dropout rates are going to soar through the roof in the next 3 years. Not quite sure where all of my ramblings fit in but it certainly spurred my thinking. Deb |
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Heidi Deb, Based on what I am seeing at the secondary level, I think dropout rates are already soaring fueled by NCLB, high-stakes testing, and oppressive top-down language and education policies. That’s why it’s so important to get the word out about RMI and RMA. Ken’s work on revaluing reading and readers is critical at this juncture—especially for urban youth and English Language Learners. Heidi |
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Deb Heidi, I guess it hasn't really hit full force in rural areas in the middle of the country yet. But I could be mistaken. We have a lot of migrant farm workers so I'm not sure about the kids (and I sort live between 2 communities - one where I work and go to school and one where I live). Our rates - depending on the formula - have remained about the same. Deb |
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Heidi Deb, I don't remember where you are, but does your state have a graduation test? Also, Bill Daggett's organization keeps up-to-date statistics--they are very sad, especially for Latino/a, African American, and Native youth. Heidi |
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Leslie In NYC we need to make a choice about what kind of assessments to use "periodically" through the year. DIBELS is an option, as is DRA, Fountas and PInnell, or TCRWP (Teachers College). If anyone has any knowledge and/or experience with any of these please let me know. Thanks, Leslie |
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Hugo It is so hard for preservice teachers to really grasp the importance of this assessment tool because it is usually new information and a different perspective on teaching and learning. Most people on this list are experienced teachers who have seen another way than the DIBELS, NCLB, scripted schemes and so on. It is much more difficult for the novice teacher who is relatively disempowered, in my view. This could explain why RMA does not even seem to be a valid assessment to them. It is certainly a philosophically utterly different perspective. As we say in Britain "you can say that again!".
Hugo
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Deb
Good point about
this listserv, Hugo. While I wrote preservice I was thinking that this
past semester I had some graduate level transition to teaching students
enrolled in my online graduate level courses, too, who were 'preservice'
teachers. That said they were much more open than my undergrad students
(last time I taught undergrads was in 2004/2005 - not sure which
year...). Most of them have stayed linked to this listserv even now...I
wonder if age, life experiences, and life philosophies played into this
openenss. Now that I write this I'm thinking Thanks, Deb |
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Heidi Hugo, I think that one of the issues for beginning teachers is access to RMA and mentors. Often if pre-service teachers did not learn RMI or RMA in their teacher preparation courses, they will need to enroll in grad school to gain an understanding of the theory and practice, and when I took RMA, it was a 700-level course. I think I might have been the only master’s student at the time. I hope that with all of the really knowledgeable practitioners on this listserve, we will be able to get more literature out into the field and serve as mentors for beginning teachers. Thank you for your thoughtful posts! Heidi |
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Yvonne Do any of you remember the days when we had to read a paragraph from the basal reader? I am so old I remember the entire class taking out the basal. The teacher would have each student read a paragraph. Well, I was so nervous, like the other kids, that I would count down to the paragraph I knew I would have to read. Of course, I paid no attention to the other kids. Then when it was my turn, I read the paragraph precisely. However, I never knew what the message was. I work with a fourth grader, and her parents insist that she read every word perfectly, and that if she doesn't know a word she has to sound it out. When I first started working with her, she stumbled a lot and her mouth would get dry from the anxiety. So, when I knew she would stumble across a word, I would just tell her the word. Then I told her that what she was reading should make sense. I taught her how to ask the two important questions: Does what I am reading making sense? And does what I am reading sound like language? Her parents told me that she is now a reading machine and gobbles up books. We also do a lot of writing. She has written a story about her babysitter and is going to give this story as a birthday gift to her babysitter. This child uses incredibly complex words and sentences. So, she is reading complex sentence structure and vocabulary considered to be adult type words. For her mother's birthday, we looked at poetry about mothers. She read the poems, and chose her favorites. Then she wrote a poem for her mother's birthday. We are not done with the story about her babysitter or the book of poems for her mother's birthday, because we talked about the importance of having distance from what one is writing. She has already revised the story about her babysitter several times, changing order, taking away, changing sentence structure and also words. For the poetry book for her mother, she has changed the order of the poems. This child is thinking about making changes in the poem she wrote for her mother. Oh, the power of MEANING in learning cannot be dismissed. Today, another fourth grade boy and his team just won the soccer tournament. He is writing a story about how he played 5 games in 5 hours after school. The word Boulder is used in his story. So, the last 5 minutes, we spend looking at the words: Boulder, boulder. bolder, colder, could, principal, and principle. These were the words he wanted to focus on spelling. We talked about how so many spelling rules do not fit. One of my high school seniors put together an Anime comic book about homosexuality for her graduation culminating project. For this, she had to read books about homosexuality, decide on the characters, plot, theme, and sequence of events. When she presented the project for senior exhibition day, she told the audience that one of things she learned was how to spell, punctuate, show her characters by what they say and do, as well as think about themes in books. When meaning is the center of learning, students do amazing things. Hope you enjoyed the anecdotes. Go group!!!!! Miscue analysis rocks. Yvonne Siu-Runyan |
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Yetta Yvonne reminds us of the important relationship between reading and writing. Thanks for the anecdotes....... yetta |
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George Perhaps it is important to differentiate between proficient/strategic readers and less proficient/struggling readers in a discussion of Frank Smith's caution re: readers becoming overly conscious of process. RMA is, in my view, an excellent strategy to "demystify" (Y. Goodman's term, I believe) the reading process for less proficient/struggling readers who oftentimes read as if meaning was their last concern. Indeed, they often overuse graphophonic cues and underutilize semantic/syntactic cues as they attempt to process meaningful textual discourse. This is most likely (says the research and my own personal experience) an artifact of their instructional history ("you get what you teach!"). These readers do not (regularly) self-monitor or self-correct their semantically unacceptable miscues. RMA is an excellent way to "raise their consciousness level" and, by so doing, make them "privy to process." Simply stated, they learn that reading is, in fact, a "psycholinguistic guessing game" (K. Goodman) where the reader takes risks and orchestrates the use of all three language cueing systems as he/she transacts with text. Now the question becomes, should proficient/strategic readers ALSO be made conscious of underlying cognitive/linguistic processes? The neurologists would respond that automatic processes should not be mediated. Edmund Burke Huey perhaps said it best when discussing reading processes: "...it's kind of like log rolling, all one has to do is to think about that which he/she is doing and he/she is sure to fall off!" (a paraphrase...but close to the actual verbiage). Hooray E.B. Huey...perhaps the FIRST psycholinguist!!
George J. Cavuto, Ph.D. |
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Deb I have to admit that I am chuckling! Huey may be one of the 1st psycholinguists...When we bring in the historical aspect of our knowledge about the reading process it really shows the depth of theories that support different theoretical camps and their practices. I like Gadamer's quote that "When you take a word in your mouth, you have not taken up some arbitrary tool which can be thrown in a corner if it doesn't do the job, but you are committed to a line of thought that comes from afar and reaches beyond you." (Truth & Method, 1989, p. 547-548). We are part of a thought collective (Carolyn Burke's term) whose history directs its present and future course. Regardless of which thought collective one belongs to this is true. Nice post. I really like your thinking! Deb |
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Hugo should proficient/strategic readers ALSO be made conscious of underlying cognitive/linguistic processes? The neurologists would respond that automatic processes should not be mediated. I think a major educational issue yet to be properly addressed is precisely the direction of the conscious. There is very good evidence that indeed you get what you teach - especially the weaker student is likely to learn and then stick absolutely with the strategy they were initially taught (and this is usually precisely grapho-phonic reading - sounding out). It is still very unclear what the conscious is for (it being small, serial, plodding and inherently secondary to the wonderful unconscious). The best teaching, it seems to me, directs people's consciousness at the real-world and the meaningful - exactly what, for example, RMA does. The purpose and the real. The thrust of learning is precisely to make as much detail as possible automatic (we all do spelling without conscious thought, for instance, while our conscious minds are away among issues like meaning and pizzazz). The last thing we want to do is reverse this! If anyone is interested in consciousness and learning, the notes to chapter 6 in my book which can be found on the website below cover as far as I have got to date in thinking about this headache-inducing subject. The book is some 117,000 words long so takes a few seconds to download.
Hugo
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Michele I have used miscue analysis with deaf readers for many years as an assessment tool. I taught teachers in my school how to use miscue analysis to plan reading lessons and write IEP objectives. It was as if only the teachers had the knowledge. It was only when I began using RMA and we invited students in the process as well that students began to build self confidence and become more thoughtful readers. Often when we began RMA and students watched themselves read (on videotape) they saw miscues in a negative light. One of the first times I used RMA in a small class of second grade deaf students I showed one student reading. She paused before an unknown word and her response was "I didn't know it." She was very embarrassed. I was afraid that this session would hurt her self esteem. We rewound the tape and looked again at the same clip. I asked the class to look at the all the things she was doing. We looked closely and I directed the students to watch her eyes and we noticed that the reader was looking up at the picture, an EXCELLENT reading strategy, she then looked left and we could see that she was rereading the text, another EXCELLENT reading strategy. She was using her finger to track the print. Soon the students were finding things that I had missed. The reader was using great reading strategies and the rest of the class could also use those strategies when they came to a tricky word. Before the end of the lesson we generated a list of reading strategies that good readers use. The student's affect changed dramatically and "I didn't know" became, "I know what to do when I don't know a word." She developed confidence and became aware that she was actively trying to solve a new word. As we continued with RMA sessions with this class, all the students were eager for the class to watch them on video. Looking for a reading strategy that we did not already have on the list became a goal. The reading strategy list became part of their vocabulary and they became metalinguistic.
Michele Gennaoui |
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Prisca What you're doing is so exciting, Michele! When kids feel "safe" like they do with you and your other students, they're not afraid or intimidated by having others watch them read and talk about what they do as readers. You help them know what to look for and pay attention to. The kids know they're going to be "built up" and not "torn down." They see that they are no different than other readers and that ALL of them are SMART, capable, and have numerous strengths! I love the goal of finding new strategies to add to the list!!! Prisca
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Yvonne Hooray for you, Michele. You did good. What a great teacher you must be. Yvonne Siu-Runyan |
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Roxanne I am a literacy coach and have just begun working with a fourth grade student who tested on the DRA2 at level 12 Independent (mid first grade). He is new in our school and it seems that he has been moved from school to school by mom to avoid "labeling" him as Special Ed. Mom told me he was diagnosed with a learning disability and agreed to let me work with him since I'm a Reading Specialist and not a Sp Ed teacher. I've worked with this student 4 times and think I've been doing something like RMA. This discussion will help me be more intentional about helping him understand the strengths he has as a reader. So far I've focused on helping my student understand that he has (as I put it to him) 2 brains - a reading brain that tends to play tricks on him (all he's been taught to do so far is "sound out" words and this is what he thinks he should do when he reads thus my labeling this as his reading brain) and a smart brain that can help out his reading brain. Of course what I'm doing is teaching him to use meaning (his smart brain) along with visual (his reading brain) but what has amazed me is just what this tln discussion is pointing out - that helping this student understand how his reading "works" as opposed to just prompting him to use all 3 cueing systems can be very powerful. He is now reading Frog and Toad (level 19 - instructional level for him) and his teacher reports that he is actually reading during independent reading in class. One thing I have done with him is point out how his reading brain reads "who" for "how" by writing both words on a whiteboard so he can see the "trick" his reading brain is playing on him and how his smart brain can listen to and check on what his reading brain is doing. I've also helped him decide if his reading brain is making him read something he knows isn't quite the word on the page, his smart brain can decide if the word he wants to read is okay (a substitution that makes sense) and he can go on. He now thinks he can learn to read (and, I've also been telling him that if he continues to read things that aren't too hard his smart brain will help him teach himself to read). We're both having fun! Roxanne Wilderman |
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Prisca It sounds like you're using some principles of RMA, Roxanne. You're helping your student think about what he's doing and focusing him on making sense as he reads. Maybe you can think about helping him see that he has one smart reading brain and point out the smart strategies he uses when he reads. For example, when he makes a prediction that isn't going to make sense and then corrects that miscue, that's a smart strategy! That's what good readers do. Another smart strategy you've already pointed out to him is making a meaningful substitution. It's always exciting to see kids catch on, gain confidence, and READ more! That's how they become more proficient readers. Prisca |
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Wendy
Hello all, I am an 8th grade English teacher in NYC and I have been following the discussion all day. I find it fascinating that so many of us forget that reading is as much an emotional task as well as an intellectual one. I'm referring to the level of praise we provide for our students, particularly the struggling readers. Although I do praise my students as often as possible, it rarely occurs to me to praise them for a miscue! What I'm reading in this discussion makes perfect sense - if students make a perfectly acceptable miscue, syntactically, graphophonically or any other way - they should be praised for the "brilliant" thinking that is going on during the reading process. As a reading teacher, I always wondered why our students who made reasonable substitutions in the reading process were always so anxious about correcting. Now I understand that it comes more from a fear of being "wrong" and their lack of confidence as readers, rather than their weaknesses. I'm going to change the way I praise my readers. Thank you! Wendy
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Prisca You're so right! Sometimes teachers, parents, etc., do forget the 'emotional' side of reading. Readers have to believe they CAN read. If they don't believe that, they're not very likely to try because they believe they won't be successful. Often kids who are struggling only hear about the 'mistakes' they make which isn't very inspiring to them. Helping them see that the correction they just made when what they read wasn't making sense or the meaningful substitution they made is what ALL good readers do is powerful! They already know and do what good readers do - they just need to practice doing it more often. All students do need praise but when the praise is connected to something specific the reader did (like a miscue), it's all the more meaningful. We need to use terms like "brilliant" with all kids because that's what they are. There isn't only one way to be "brilliant" or "smart". (I just bought a new picture book about a variety of people who are smart in a range of different ways.) One more thing you might consider is to share some of your own miscues with your students. If you make a miscue while reading aloud to them, when you finish, talk about it with them. Or, bring in a miscue you made while reading at home the night before and talk about what you did and why. (It might be easiest to write it on the board for them to see) That way the kids see that you make miscues too and you use the exact same strategies they do! Keep us posted on how things are going! Prisca |
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Kaye Prisca, Would you share the name of the picture book you referred to - about people who are smart in different ways? Thanks - already a great conversation! Kaye Marshall |
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Prisca Here's the info on the book, Kaye: How We Are Smart, by W. Nikola-Lisa, illus by S. Qualls, published by Lee & Low Books, 2006. It has a poem, followed by a brief biography for such people as Marian Anderson, Maria Tallchief, Georgia O'Keefe, and Matthew Henson. In the back it talks about multiple intelligences, etc. It's a pretty neat book. Prisca |
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Wendy
Prisca, After reading your response to my posting, I realize that once I make my students aware of what miscues are and explain to them that it’s not always necessary to correct, they begin to catch me making miscues. I never captured these as “teachable moments” but I will now. I think it’s a great idea to write them down side by side and have the kids analyze why they think I might have made the mistake. I think it’s a wonderful way to open their eyes to how our brains work when we read. It will likely go a long way toward helping them understand not only that every reader (even an experienced, confident one like the teacher) makes miscues and that it’s not necessarily a bad thing. Thanks for the suggestion – too bad it’s the end of the school year – I can’t wait to try it out! Wendy |
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Prisca
Hi, Wendy - While jumping on every teachable moment might get "distracting", taking advantage of some is definitely important. Kids, especially the ones who are struggling, think no one makes miscues but them. Having a teacher and other stronger readers openly talk about their miscues and the strengths they show can be very freeing, especially as these kids realize they make the same kinds of miscues. You may not have lots of opportunities now for these discussions but there's always next year. It's important to remember too that the point is not that the readers eventually "get the word right" that's in the text. The point is that they are working to making sense. Sometimes that means they'll correct a miscue that doesn't make sense, sometimes it means they won't correct a miscue that does make sense, and sometimes, if the text is particularly difficult, they may use some other strategy like omitting it and continuing to read. Those kinds of efficient strategies need to be validated too. I've used that last strategy many times myself in my reading - chances are you have too. Prisca |
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Hugo Have the kids analyze why they think I might have made the mistake...helping them understand not only that every reader (even an experienced, confident one like the teacher) makes miscues and that it’s not necessarily a bad thing. I teach in ABE (adult literacy, in an
earlier era) and a major issue at the beginning is precisely to get
students to view their "mistakes" in a positive light. A miscue which
retains the contextual meaning is cause, of course, for congratulations
and a gold clock as it reveals that reading has become meaning-making.
But even "mistakes" which are errors (especially is this so with
spelling) are the highly personalised information we need to progress -
truly formative assessment. Students need, if not to love, at least to
be passionately interested in their "mistakes". I make all mine up front
and it really helps this process. (ABE students are often incredulous
that people like me actually make mistakes at all - a fact they urgently
need to appreciate!) Hugo |
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Prisca
I agree, Hugo! One of my favorite sayings is "Every professional was once an amateur." You don't learn to ride a bike without falling off or swim without sinking. It takes practice and not being afraid to look for better ways to do what you're doing to improve. Prisca |
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Yetta Hugo..... You have good insights into your own and your student's responses. If you can find a copy of Retrospective Miscue Analysis by Ann Marek and me (it's a RCOwen book but out of print) you'll find some great stories about adult readers being influenced by RMA. These readers become empowered as they realize that their miscues are based on their own knowledge and background. I could provide a few examples if you ask more about this. In your piece, I'm not sure what mistakes are errors...... I have learned that all shifts away from conventional or expected responses are based on knowledge. So they are responses or different cues than the ones I might use. Sometimes as I discuss such responses with my readers, I find out that they really are on the right track but it is different from mine. I want learners especially adults to know that "mistakes" are not made because they need to be fixed. They are made as a result of thoughtful responses that are based on different interpretations than the responses of others .... Yetta |
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Deb
Hugo's post made me think beyond 'reading' to the content areas. I have found two related things in my work with both teachers and kids. First when the teacher develops a miscue "eye and ear" then the kids learn to value themselves as readers (what everyone here is saying happens - nothing new) but what amazed me was the transformation of these kids when it came to other content areas. Those who learned to understand that mistakes weren't really mistakes but opportunties to figure out how to make meaning from text began to apply this mindset to math...to science...to social studies...etc. The errors were no longer errors (despite some of their teachers tendencies to keep saying they were) but the kids intuitively knew that these miscues were where the learning process broke down and it was ok. The questions and confusions about the topic, let's say math, began at the point of the miscue and began to stop making sweeping generalizations that it was all wrong. Rather they became more confident in what they could do right and worked hard to figure out where they went down a path that didn't work well. Just thinking aloud here. Deb |
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Prisca
That's exciting to hear, Debbie! When kids can take what they learn and do in one setting and use it in another, you know they've internalized it. The understandings about reading and themselves as readers, the confidence, and the responsibility for their own learning take over and that's what we want!!! Prisca |
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Heidi Hi Hugo, Thank you for sharing your experiences with your adult education, ABE, learners. I, too, taught in ABE at one time. In fact, my work in ABE was what inspired me to enroll in a master’s program in Language, Reading and Culture. I was actively seeking a better way to teach reading. From my experience, the ABE students with whom I worked thought they were “bad” readers because they didn’t spell very well. They held a word-centered view of the reading process and believed that reading was producing an exact rendering of text. They stopped reading because they thought there was something wrong with them because they didn’t spell well, couldn’t pronounce all of the words they encountered, and “read it wrong.” Ken Goodman explains this much better in the following quote: “Every word becomes a major obstacle to be identified before going on. The reader suffers from the ‘next-word syndrome;’ each unconquered word is a symbol of defeat.” When I began working with urban youth who were struggling readers, I saw the same kinds of things. Their repertoire of strategies consisted of the following: 1. Sound it out; 2. Look it up in the dictionary; and 3. Ask someone—usually the teacher. Data that I’ve collected from Burke Reading Inventories (Goodman, Watson, and Burke, 2005) over a five year period consistently show this pattern. The ABE students thought that because we are teachers and have degrees, we never make mistakes, and my high school students feel the same way. It is so interesting to debunk those myths in partnership with them. When they realize that reading is not reading word for word and pronouncing every thing correctly, they experience a new sense of “freedom” that allows them to read without angst. The power of miscue analysis and RMA frees them from misapprehension and the constraints under which they had been operating. According to Ken Goodman: It [the revaluing process] requires patience and gentle support from teachers to help students in a long, slow rebuilding of the sense of self and sense of reading. Essentially, a revaluing program involves getting readers to read real, meaningful texts, to strengthen and gain new appreciation of the productive strategies that lead to comprehension, and to drop the nonproductive strategies. Teachers can turn the conflict that readers in trouble experience every time they attempt to read into a positive force to achieve the revalued reading (p. 18). Hugo, this is the essence of what I see you doing with your readers. Best, Heidi |
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Hugo Yetta says: "These readers become empowered as they realize that their miscues are based on their own knowledge and background." Which I find of overwhelming importance. The most important thing I ever do with a student is exactly this - enable them to become confident users of their own language for their own purposes. This, incidentally, will include being confident enough to do this, even in writing, even if they are sure there may be a "mistake" or three in there. (As the rest of us do.) The "what mistakes are errors" question: I meant that some "errors" aren't (a miscue which maintains the sense of, or even improves, the original is not, for example). Myself, I leave all such alone & say nowt about it (unless useful in a miscue analysis context). "Errors" which may be picked up on and used are those with relevance either linguistically or to the student. I get students to find and correct their own "errors" as far as possible as I think they need to understand and adopt the everyday linguistic strategies of confidently literate folk. Heidi writes: When I began working with urban youth who were struggling readers, I saw the same kinds of things. Their repertoire of strategies consisted of the following: 1. Sound it out; 2. Look it up in the dictionary; and 3. Ask someone—usually the teacher. If I was going to be cynical I would say the typical student I see has the following strategy: 1. Sound it out. 2. When unsuccessful, go fishing. I almost invariably find myself very deliberately inculcating visual / motor approaches which usually improve performance and confidence rapidly. I usually work pretty much exclusively within some variant of language experience methodology and find that ownership is just about everything. It is crucial to let the student really feel that their language is actually theirs and they are entitled to use it as they see fit (within reason I suppose!). That they do not have to be grammatically correct, all they have to do is produce something they like, something they knowingly approve. They work in terror of "incorrect" grammar and need to know that a lot of the writing & speech we really like the sound of and which really expresses meaning well is, technically, not absolutely "correct". Like this. For example, a student wrote about running the London marathon and the bag of freebies you get. He wrote that it contained this and that and that. Then he wrote "Rubbish, really." His wife gave him hell for grammatical incorrectness (it's not a complete sentence) but he stuck to his guns. The rest of us do this all the time. I have a theory that many ABE students actually produce writing with tremendous zip and interest precisely because when the grammar was being dished up and insisted upon they were unable to follow so their innate inventiveness remained intact. That student's wife, for example, had been linguistically hobbled.
Hugo
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Heidi Hugo, I like the idea of the student’s wife being linguistically hobbled. That’s one of the things I remember about ABE students—the funds of knowledge they bring to the classroom both linguistically and experientially. Language experience is powerful, and I think we don’t often use it as much as we could and/or maybe should. Thank you. Heidi |
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Roxanne I have had good success using RMA with a 4th grade student who has been "fishing" for the past 4 years. What I'm trying to figure out at this point is how to help him take charge of filling his brain with stuff he will need when reading future texts. Yesterday he got stuck on the word "sparrow" and (said spare) - when I asked him if he could think of something to put in that would make sense he said "bird" - good news for this "sound it out kid". Sparrow was not in his head/vocabulary. I have talked to him about the fact that we all put lots of stuff into our heads all the time that we can get out of our heads when we read but am unsure how to motivate/teach him to make a conscious effort to fill his brain with ideas/information/etc. Help! P.S. I'm working on what I can get HIM to do on his own behalf not what I can get others, like his mom, to do. Roxanne |
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Heidi Hi Roxanne, How exciting. I am wondering if the "spare" wasn't a partial miscue as he was working to make sense? If he said bird, I think he's doing it. I love the metacognitive aspect of RMA. "Why do you think you made that miscue?" He didn't know the word, but from the context or other cues, he picked up bird. It sounds like he's really working to make sense of what he's reading. It's so great to have a teacher who encourages students to think and reflect on their learning and meaning-making processes. Thank you so much for sharing. I love these stories. Heidi |
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Yetta
Maybe he and his
mom would like to work through the The Reading DetectiveClub
book by Debra Goodman over the summer. Debi speaks directly to kids in
this book.
It was developed with two kids that Debi worked in RMA type lessons into
a self-initiated work book type book. It is user friendly for parents,
too. |
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Prisca Hi Roxanne - Do you have the Reading Strategies book by Yetta et al? There is a strategy lesson in there called selected deletions (p. 233) that might work well. It's like a cloze passage except that instead of deleting every 7th word or whatever, you delete only highly predictable words (usually nouns and verbs are best). In the text you're talking about, you could have put a "blank" instead of sparrow, for example. It forces readers to think about what the text is about and what would make sense. They can't "sound out" because there is nothing there to sound out - they have to pick up on semantic and syntactic cues. It also works well to have kids work with a partner to figure out what to put in the blank. The collaboration can be powerful (see Cooperative Controlled Cloze in the strategies book on p. 157). The more blanks you leave the more difficult the text is so watch that. Also, the point is not to come up with the "correct" word that was deleted, but rather to substitute something that makes sense in the passage. Prisca |
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Deb Another strategy in the book that I just love is Synonym Substitution. In our quest to make meaning when we read we need to be able to substitute words that mean the same thing at a moment’s notice. We can do this whole class or small group. Fun, fun, fun. Deb |
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Roxanne Aside from my inbox filling up I'm so glad I joined this listserve. I've done lots of individual tutoring and one thing I always insist on is that parents periodically watch me "coach" their child. This has been a huge eye-opener for parents. Now I'm thinking I should take this further and do a RMA conference with child, parent, and me! What have those of you doing RMA done with parents? Roxanne |
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Prisca Yes, Roxanne, getting parents involved is so important! There are several of Yetta's students who did family RMA where the parents sat in on the sessions with the child. When she gets online in a little while, she'll have more information about that. |
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Alan I agree that readers, especially what we're calling struggling readers, often show anxiety about being "wrong" even when their responses are completely reasonable. One of our early observations was that both proficient readers and readers who were viewed as struggling, harbor some misconceptions and myths about the reading process. One of these is that any deviation from a correct response (any miscue or mistake) represents a deficit regardless of how reasonable that response might be. One particularly poignant way to deal with this deficit view about the making of "mistakes" is to share with readers the observation that all readers make miscues when they read and, that miscues are simply by-products or artifacts of the sense-making process. In a miscue course that I just finished, one of the assignments was to observe proficient readers reading orally wherever possible. These observations were then brought into class for all of the course participants to analyze and discuss. Some examples included: when the principal reads the morning announcements, when the news reader reads the teleprompter on t.v. or radio, when the lector or cantor reads scriptural text at a religious service, when a sister or brother or parent reads a newspaper or greeting card... You can imagine that we collected a wide variety of snippets of proficient oral readings--each one containing several high quality miscues. So it happened that one teacher was engaged in an RMA discussion with an older reader and mentioned that all readers make miscues when they read. The kid was incredulous. To support her statement, this teacher then produced the miscue-marked transcripts of several adult proficient readers and proceeded to show how the miscues were a part of the sense making process. This teacher's quick thinking showed a prime example of how to help readers break down some of those myths. Alan D. Flurkey |
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Michelle I am so enjoying the conversation surrounding RMA. I have been reading recovery trained which has allowed me to have these conversations with my students, though the feedback was just that: feedback. Instead of being a "midwife" to these children I was for the most part pointing out to them what they did to fix up a miscue (powerful praise) then moving on to another miscue and leaving them with a teaching point. Because our time was limited to 30 minutes with the student, the lesson needed to move along quickly. There was some time to ask the student what they were thinking when they made a particular miscue, and involve them in correcting it, but time to really get them to understand that this was THEIR process and to get them to talk about that process was extremely limited. As teachers, our thinking aloud process is so beneficial to the students and having the students think aloud with the teacher and peers will certainly make the reading process so much more powerful. I'm curious what you see as the ideal setting for RMA i.e. classroom teacher, reading teacher/specialist, time considerations, in class, pull-out, etc. Thank you! Michelle Michelle LaMattina Mullen |
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Alan Michelle, That's a great question about setting for RMA. One of really useful things about RMA is its flexibility. It can be used one-on-one in tutoring situations by a reading specialist or literacy coach or resource teacher, or in small groups that can be either teacher-led or student-led. Sarah Costello developed a plan called collaborative RMA where small groups of students would listen to an oral reading and stop the recording when anyone heard a miscue and started a discussion to analyze the miscue. A teacher can write a miscue-marked sentence or paragraph containing his or her miscues, or a student's miscues on the board or on a transparency for the entire class to consider. As long as the focus is on the strengths that readers show when they're reading, there are all kinds of possibilities. Alan |
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Prisca Your point about time is really important, Michelle. I think any setting for RMA can be "ideal" - it's a matter of taking the time to help readers reflect and think about their reading. Once kids understand that miscues are not 'bad' and value the strengths they show, they can have these conversations among themselves. You can contextualize these discussions by first talking with students about what good readers "do" when they read and the kinds of strategies they use. You may get responses like "good readers don't make mistakes" but you can use yourself as an example that that's not true by sharing some of your own miscues. From there, talk about miscues readers make, focusing on the ones that support meaning. Let the reader talk about what he/she was thinking and move into the strengths it shows. It's well worth the time it takes! Prisca |
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Heidi Hi Michelle, Milwaukee is my home town by the way. I follow Sara Costello's method and make changes depending on the needs of my students. I work with urban youth who are struggling readers. Many of the students with whom I work are English Language Learners. They are often frustrated by traditional approaches to reading. Although I use RMA in tutoring sessions and in working one-on-one with students, collaborative retrospective miscue analysis works extremely well with the students whom I teach. They take ownership of the group process, and the language of miscue analysis gives them a discourse to use when discussing their reading that does not focus on right, wrong, good or bad. They learn about themselves as readers and experience a sense of control over their reading processes. I have many quotes from students where they report feeling a renewed sense of freedom when they read. They really enjoy working in small groups, and last week, one of my students said that [learning about language and reading] "it's better because you get to really experience it." Thank you for posing your question. Heidi |
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Yvonne Two questions I always ask the students with whom I work are: What do I do that helps you as a reader? And, What do I do that helps you as a writer? In both instances, the students have told me that when I share my reading process and my writing process with them, it helps them learn more about reading and writing. Another important question I have asked my students is: What do you want to learn next? And how can I help you learn that? Amazing, amazing things come from the mouths of students when the teacher empowers them to ask questions. This is one of the huge benefits of miscue analysis. It changes the way teachers view their roles in classrooms. Miscue analysis is anti NCLB and high stakes testing as it is fashioned for the past years. Understanding and learning about miscue analysis does not punish or blame. It instead empowers and supports. Yvonne Siu-Runyan |
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Heidi Thank you Yvonne! You are so right. RMA transfers authority from the teacher to the reader, which sets the stage for the reader to take control of his/her own reading. The shift in power, authority, and control is huge for students, especially for those who have little power or control over other events in their lives. Teaching students the language of miscue creates a whole new dynamic. As I mentioned earlier, they now have a language with which to talk about their reading and the reading process that does not punish or blame. The questions you ask emphasize the fact that the reader brings his or her experience and knowledge to the reading process, you are giving your readers choices, which is so important, as so many choices have been for them, especially readers in trouble. It’s the foundation of the revaluing process. Thank you again for sharing your work and your insights. Heidi |
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Pam I agree that miscue analysis is anti NCLB and high stakes testing, however the term “analysis” is the key. If the teacher is not analyzing the results and letting that data help drive instruction, miscue is nothing more than any other corporate test – money for the man! Pam Warren
Intermediate
Literacy Coordinator/4th Grade Teacher
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Hugo I agree that miscue analysis is anti NCLB and high stakes testing, however the term “analysis” is the key. If the teacher is not analyzing the results and letting that data help drive instruction, miscue is nothing more than any other corporate test – money for the man! Miscue analysis is an assessment tool. It seems strange only because it
is formative, open, empowering and democratic! Hugo
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Prisca You're so right, Pam! And, the richest most informative analysis is beyond just looking at numerical scores (which sometimes is all schools are interested in). It's analyzing the miscues to learn the strategy patterns readers have, what effective/efficient strategies they use, what strategies are not effective/efficient and how strategy lessons can help, etc. That takes time but that's how to get at the "nitty gritty" of what kids need as readers. RMA builds on that kind of analysis. Prisca
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Pam THEN, after the analysis and determining what to teach – HOW TO TEACH becomes important. I’m working with intermediate teachers who oftentimes lack the skills necessary to teach reading to our hardest to reach learners. They can diagnose, but don’t know what to do next. Pam Warren
Intermediate
Literacy Coordinator/4th Grade Teacher
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Yetta It may be that if they have had minimal experience with teaching reading they don't appreciate how to converse with their students about their processes. I have found that kids know a lot about what they do as they read (they can diagnose themselves) after we begin to show them that when they make miscues they are not just messing up. They are using their brains. You need to build trust in learners to do this. I hope the intermediate teachers you are working with have such trust and respect for their students........ Yetta.
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Prisca Hopefully some of these discussions would help them, Pam. If they can involve the students in conversations about their reading/learning and talk about the students' strengths with them and support the students in assuming responsibility, they will most likely get farther than they will simply "telling" the students what to do. Have you found any strategies that work with helping teachers understand that? Prisca
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Pam I think what works is the same for adults as students – test, model, guided practice, teach, coach – cycle through again. I do believe that listening to students/teachers is crucial. Their voice combined with data creates our lesson plans. I also believe that a cognitive awareness of our thought processes shared with our students empowers the teacher and the learner. We teach reader to reader, writer to writer. I also believe professional development resource distribution needs to be used effectively. We have wonderful Reading Recovery teachers who know great ways to help intermediate teachers teach for a particular skill determined to be needed through miscue, but are we using them - oftentimes, no. Pam |
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Deb I agree that what works is the same for any student at any age, Pam. Please tell me more about the 'test' part of your process. How do you define it? What does it look like? What types of things do you call "tests"? My gut feeling is that 'assess' is more what you are talking about but perhaps not. Can't wait to find out what you are thinking! Deb |
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Pam You are so right – test AND assess. Parts of this process are formative, and others are summative. We do everything from formal text leveling, Slosson, Schlagal, NWEA and more. Then we use data such as Reader’s Notebooks, discussion language, conferencing, etc. All are important if the data used helps to further drive instruction or gives us insight into growth over time. Assessment is continual and ongoing, and a key component is reflection by both teacher and student. This reflection can be yearly, monthly, and moment by moment. It sometimes appears to be teaching on the fly, but it really is an immediate adjustment to our learners. Using miscue analysis helps us to see if our moments are on track, or if we are missing the bases. Pam |
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Deb I thought so! What I really like is the clear statement you made: " it really is an immediate adjustment to our learners.” This is very important to remember...we can immediately adjust everything we do in the classroom if our learners show us it needs to be done. It is not on the 'fly' rather it is a purposeful renegotiation of the learning engagement for these children. If we monitor progress over time then each purposeful renegotiation will look different and feel different but the learning will be clearly evident. Thanks! Deb |
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Wendy I agree that RMA is an assessment tool - my goodness, what else would you do with it?! I also agree that once the data is analyzed it is not easy to figure out what to do next. As a new teacher, I always go to my literacy coach/AP to get suggestions on how to address certain issues. What I'd like to see is a troubleshooting manual, for example, if your student has this problem, then try this strategy. I hate the helpless feeling I get when a student is so frustrated that they don't even want to try reading with me and I don't know how to help them! Of course, doing this now for my third year, I have a few more tricks in my arsenal (excuse the mixed metaphor), but still not nearly enough to be able to help with all the different and varied reading issues that come through my classroom. Any suggestions for such a troubleshooting manual? Wendy |
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Yetta Emotions and Reading… …when a student is so frustrated that they don't even want to try reading with me and I don't know how to help them! This is a student who is emotionally distraught. First take on the emotions. The response needs to be to help the reader discover what they can read..... and what they do read. Many of the kids I work with don't think that reading the everyday things they do is reading. So we make lists of all the variety of things we read. I have to convince them that they are readers by showing them what they can read. It is important to build some confidence in their ability to respond to print and is a beginning of RMA with some students who are soooooooo frustrated. With one such student, it took me about six months to discover that the reader raised rabbits. He would slide down low into his chair, put his hands across the top of his eyes and just sit there as I tried to engage him in reading. He would read baseball cards with me and tell me about the players. I helped him know that he could read car advertisements. He was surprised I called it reading but he still wouldn't respond to books. We stayed away from books. We wrote together (as Yvonne reminds us -- reading and writing go together) and he would read what we wrote. He would listen to books when I read with interest and we could discuss them. I found out about the rabbits late in our time together. I brought a number of realistic fiction books about rabbits one day -- and he was fascinated to discover that there were books about rabbits. We began to make signs so he could sell his rabbits. He really knew a lot about rabbits that he could share with the kids in his class. It was the end of the semester and he wasn't at the same school the next semester. I wish I had found out more about him earlier. Yetta M. GoodmanRegents Professor Emerita University of Arizona, College of Education Language Reading and Culture - Room 532 Tucson, AZ 85721 Home Address 7914 S. Galileo Lane Tucson, AZ 85747-9609 |
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Prisca Two possibilities for a troubleshooting manual are the RMI book and the strategies book that Richard C. Owen publishes. The focus of the RMI book is on doing miscue analysis but a couple chapters in the back get at how to make sense of the miscue patterns you're seeing and what to do about it. The strategies book is full of strategies for probably every "problem" you could think of. Both are written by Yetta Goodman, Dorothy Watson, and Carolyn Burke. Prisca |
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Yetta In both the Reading Miscue Inventory and Reading Strategies: Focus on Comprehension we actually do that. Or at least we hope we do some of that. Also if you check the references at the end of the article that Richard Owen posted you will find reference to a few other books that provide just such guidelines. Debra Goodman's --- The Reading Detective Club is a workbook-like guide for kids to discover the Reading Process and some of you can find some of the strategy lessons suggested in that book is a good way to get kids involved in talking and thinking about reading. The Moore and Gilles Book and Ruth Davenport's Miscues not Mistakes? also include specifics about how to respond to kids' miscues. A number of the posts have talked about self-evaluation on the part of the reader.... The important thing about becoming insightful about miscues is to help readers consider the kinds of strategies they can use to move them toward greater reading efficiency. Yetta |
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Vicki Michelle, I wanted to comment on your question about the best setting for RMA. I think it is critical that the students you work with in RMA have trust in you and feel safe with the process. They need to be with someone who knows them well as readers. It is easy to make connections when opportunities arise if you are familiar with the student, what they are reading, and what their strengths are in reading. I have used RMA as a classroom teacher and also as a tutor, but I found the collaborative process in the classroom much more powerful. The students really have a great deal of insight into miscues and because the group often miscued on the same things, they offered "reasons" for the miscues that I had not considered. v. |
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Yetta Vicki makes a number of important points. Knowing the students of both miscue analysis and RMA is basic to good teaching. It gives you insight into the reader's languages and dialects, too. The role of social group interaction regarding thinking and talking about miscues is powerful indeed. However, we've found for some students who emotionally are shy, uncomfortable with sharing their readings with their peers and/ or very insecure about themselves as readers, the individual RMA is powerful as well. This has been especially true for high school or adult readers with a long history of being severely labeled (Dorothy Watson's term). Yetta.... |
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Yvonne I cannot express enough the importance of knowing and understanding the students' dialect. This makes all the difference in the world. Yetta sure knows the importance of understanding students' dialects. Yvonne |
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Priscilla I think for me, one of the biggest benefits of RMA is the opportunity it provides students to collaborate on their own learning, be actively involved in the development of meta-type thinking, and to take ownership of their learning. They become “key players” instead of waiting for their teacher to tell them if “it’s right.” This is especially true for deaf students whose educational experiences, for the most part, encourage passivity and limited development of thinking skills. I was thrilled to see Michele mention she is using it at St. Francis de la Salle!!! We sure aren’t doing anything even remotely close here at NMSD… I also love the opportunity for dialogue – to be able to look at miscues from multiple perspectives. We each bring varied experiences to our interaction with print and through the construction and co-construction of meaning print comes alive. Language and learning are dynamic and intertwined and RMA helps to foster this understanding…
Priscilla Shannon
Gutierrez |
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Prisca You're so right, Priscilla! In RMA readers assume responsibility for their own learning and reading and, ultimately, they need to take that responsibility in order to grow. The discussions about miscues are rich and empowering as students begin to revalue themselves as readers. Hearing others' perspectives on his/her miscues and the strengths the miscues show is very validating. Teachers like you and Michele and others play a pivotal role in this revaluing process. Prisca |
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Michele Hi Priscilla, There are many teachers of the Deaf using miscue analysis but I don't know of many using RMA. Deaf students who use American Sign Language have to deal with additional issues, as you are well aware, (sign choice, and non-manual features such as facial expression and body shift). I do think that sign language provides an even more vivid window on the student's thinking when s/he uses the sign for "lie" as in non-truth as opposed to "lie" down. Hearing students may say the word appropriately but which meaning are they thinking? And to make it even more complicated just using the wrong sign choice may or may not impact meaning- more than once a student has changed signs after the reading (during a retell) or used a more habitual sign and they still understood the author's intent.
Michele Gennaoui,
mgennaoui@sfdesales.org |
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Yetta I can use Michele's example of students changing signs during a retell even though they used a wrong sign choice earlier. This relates to understanding the relationship between comprehending (what we understand while we are reading) and comprehension (what we understand after the reading) of a whole story or article. When we (or our kids) are reading we continuously make sense of the text through our own personal interpretations. As we continue to read we transact with the author's sense making and make adaptations to what we are comprehending as we meet new ideas, characters, concepts, etc. etc. By the end of a story or article what we take away from that article (comprehension) is shifts in what we have read throughout. This is why reading whole texts (real stories, articles) is a major criteria for miscue analysis and why we do as little intrusion into the reader's oral reading during the reading. This is why we tape record and then go back later to the recording with the reader in RMA. Hearing kids also make miscues that don't fit the sense of the text and change those miscues as they continue reading and building new and additional understandings as they read. Frank Smith calls this the reduction of uncertainty. The more we continue to read the more information we have to be able to be more certain and less tentative in our comprehending. This is why the kind of texts our kids use in their reading (and assessments) is so important. If what they are reading is artificial (controlled vocabulary and grammar) or snippets or short pieces without beginning, middles or endings..... their miscues are different from those that we analyze in their reading of whole written texts. If I have not been clear please ask me to say more or to rephrase. This is important to miscue analysis and to RMA. Another thing you'll notice when you use authentic texts is that miscues are not as high quality at the beginning of a story/ article as they become as the reader and the text continue to transact. Yetta |
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Debbie
Good Morning! I can tell you from the many, many teachers I have taught that this is truly an awakening of the most fascinating kind!! While they initially tell me "reading is comprehension," their idea of texts and strategies to support readers most assuredly screams "reading is accurate, swift word calling" - the T.O.R.P. (DeFord) gives them away as well. As I am paralleling Smith's text with class discussions (if you haven't yet had the pleasure of reading his work, he is quite radical to those who have never thought about reading and the brain in quite this fashion), I can assure you I have the "deer in the headlight looks" until about halfway through the semester when they finally start to "get it" - the jolt that always does it is when they go into school settings and observe one of my former students implementing what has up until that point been theory and reading about what "it" would look like... Once they see what a comprehensive literacy workshop can be and they see children truly engaged in (and excited about) what they are reading and writing, my students are forever changed - just as I was 15 years ago. What I know for sure is that Smith and the Goodmans have it right - they stand the test of time - authentic texts, authentic reading experiences, authentic conversations about what good readers do (using Ken's equation of effective + efficient = proficient) and how they can do it better is the key. Once you understand about the reading process, you are ready to assess, evaluate, and teach to each reader's specific strengths and areas of need - indeed, everyone need not eat off the same spoon!! From the RMI text, teachers can learn how to mark, code, and profile readers. From the Reading Strategies text, teachers have all they need to meet their students where they are in order to move them ahead toward greater proficiency - I have my students meet with a reader 7 times (I ask they work with 2-12th graders): once to administer the Burke Reading Inventory, to get to know their student, and do a cold (taped) read with retell. From this baseline (marked, coded, profiled reading and inventory knowledge), they 2) select a new cold read for the "graded portion of the assignment" and construct a retell guide (per RMI text guidelines for narrative or expository text) - once the new marked, coded, and profiled reading is complete, they pour over the strategy lessons purposefully, mindfully, and with great determination to 3) select and teach five lessons (they can use as is or adapt text depending on age/interest of reader). I can only say "WOW" when the written reports come in at the end of the semester. Even the most skeptical students are believers by the end of the semester as they watch unengaged, "often wrongly labeled,” reluctant readers begin to really read and to understand what they are doing well and desire to know more about how to read better...a modern day miracle of sorts in just five 45 minute sessions; a child who only "read - as in word called" when he had to begins to choose to read (as in comprehend text) and excitedly talks about what he is reading. The RMA is one such lesson many students (especially those working with older readers) try and often they become so excited about the grand conversations that take place during this lesson that they begin using it with everyone :)
If you have been
using DIBELS, IRIs, running records, etc. there is another way - one in
which all miscues are "not created equal", one in which children are not
asked to read nonsense or read a certain number of words in 1 minute.
If you have been using miscue analysis, I would encourage you to take it
to the next level - really understand what is going on when children
miscue and help them to understand that they are using their brains when
they miscue and that there are other options they can employ when they
come to something they don't know beyond sounding it out and chunking.
Use the knowledge gained through miscue analysis and begin planning
lessons that truly meet them where they are - focusing on strengths, not
weaknesses, and helping them become independent in selecting "just
right" texts they can read...really read :)
Dr. Debbie Jenkins Linville Coordinator, Elementary Education and Clinical Experiences Salem College 601 South Church Street 324 Fine Arts Center Winston-Salem, NC 27108 |
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Prisca WOW, Debbie! What a powerful post!!! Your excitement and the richness of your students' writing and insights comes through! I've had very similar experiences - being a phonics/basal teacher to really understanding what reading is, how it works, and how to support kids. Everything I've learned from Ken, Yetta, Frank, and everyone else is continually "validated" and reinforced whenever I read with a child. I have read with LOTS of kids of all ages and proficiencies and I have yet to meet one who doesn't have strengths and make incredible miscues. Keep doing what you're doing and spreading the word. Eventually maybe we can get those who make the decisions teachers and kids have to live with to listen! Prisca |
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Priscilla Something else I forgot to add in my original posting related to assessment in general and RMA. So often assessment is something that is "done" to students for summative reporting purposes. Internalization of skills and concepts and the inner control that Marie Clay spoke of comes about from student involvement in the assessment process. Building on their strengths or bedrock as I refer to it to allows them to overcome lack of understanding and control in other areas. Teachers need to develop an appreciation and understanding of the difference between assessment of learning and assessment for learning. They aren't mutually exclusive but if we only focus on the former, we don't ever get to the latter.
Priscilla Shannon
Gutierrez |
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Prisca I agree that students need to be involved in the assessment process, Priscilla. Self-evaluations, goal setting, etc., are part of the process too. It all relates again to students assuming responsibility for their own learning. Thanks for highlighting this! Prisca |
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Jeri I also agree. We have just finished a course on Rick Stiggins assessment and that was taught through out the entire class. Jeri |
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Roxanne When I had the job of working on a team that supported 32 literacy coaches in our district we used to tell coaches who would feel frustrated with "the powers that be" that they actually had something that has the potential for being more potent than power and that is INFLUENCE. Smart work with kids like the ideas being discussed here has the potential to influence those who see it and experience it! Roxanne |
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Jeri Through this discussion I am learning for the first time of RMA's and love the concept. In many other areas of education we have students reflect, create goals etc. why not have them understand and have responsibility in their reading. I love this. Thank you to all of you for the great sharing! Jeri |
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Heidi Thank you so much for sharing. There are so many exciting practices out there with respect to RMA and CRMA. This forum is such a wonderful way for all of us to share and grow. RMA offered an opportunity for me to reach out to my students and for them to reach out to each other. Watching them engage in CRMA sessions and grow as readers and as individuals has provided some of the most heartening moments of my teaching career. While the process is so important to and for the readers, the outcomes demonstrate that students are learning. Reading scores have improved because students are engaged in meaning making. Students who did not consider themselves readers now report reading on their own for pleasure. They are reading more, and they are reading for meaning, which has percolated through to their content area classes and is also reflected on their state-mandated test scores. This past semester, I have been observing how successful CRMA has been in working with ELLs, two of whom have documented learning disabilities. It has really been empowering for me as a teacher to watch these students become confident readers and to share in their learning experiences. Heidi |
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Prisca You're so right about kids taking responsibility for their own reading! I point out to my undergrad and grad students that they may think they're "helping" their students by continually "giving them words", etc., but what happens when the kids are on their own (i.e., taking a standardized test!) and cannot have any help? Do the kids have a range of strategies then to draw on if they encounter difficulty? Are they confident that they can deal with the 'problem' and make sense on their own??? Kids who have assumed responsibility for their reading through RMA or other means are less likely to get rattled in those kinds of situations. Prisca |
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Jayne Hi all, Just want you to know that even though I do not add to the discussions, I am soaking them up and passing them on to our administrators. Great, great discussions going on. Jayne |
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Yetta Hi.... It's Yetta..... I've just spent about 30 minutes reading most of the posts. I probably didn't get to them all. I will respond to specific questions but I first wanted to highlight specific comments from those of you already using various aspects of RMA....... I am impressed with these notions and the reason I pasted them here is to highlight that thoughtful and knowledgeable teachers may be doing the most important part of their teaching as part of those "critical teaching moments". It is in "real" conversations with the reader that we have insights into what the reader knows and is doing. At that point our insight/theory about reading helps to support what the reader is exploring. If only as teachers we had opportunities to appreciate and value these "teachable moments" rather than worrying constantly about the top down mandates, our students/ readers would all be more successful I believe. I'll respond to other emails from now on.... but I did want to highlight insights that I read that I believe show good understanding of consciousness raising..... and different ways to help readers revalue themselves as readers..... the latter statement about revaluing is a major goal of Retrospective Miscue Analysis. From Michelle As teachers, our thinking aloud process is so beneficial to the students and having the students think aloud with the teacher and peers will certainly make the reading process so much more powerful. From Marti Often when reading orally I will make miscues that do not effect the meaning and I can just go on. This time I corrected as the miscue was not helpful as I finished the sentence. When I do something like that should I comment on the miscue at the time or does that interfere with the flow of the story and the students' own meaning making? Might I go back at the end of the story and say something like, "I want to remind you of how I miscued here....” I can really see a classroom teacher pulling a small group together at a table to have this discussion. I can also see how the planning can occur very naturally using the teaching, learning cycle. I am wondering if the questions would ever be used more informally after listening to a child read a selection. After the reading, going back into the text and drawing the child's attention to a miscue. Marti -- your wondering is powerful and let's me think how our interactions (as we talk and think with others) provides important insights and new learning. Yes..... do comment to the kids but not if you are in a tense or exciting moment in your reading. Going back later is just right in this context. From Wendy I realize that once I make my students aware of what miscues are and explain to them that it’s not always necessary to correct, they begin to catch me making miscues. I never captured these as “teachable moments” but I will now. From Deb We are part of a thought collective…I agree with Frank Smith that being too conscious of the reading process may hinder comprehension. I want to remind us of Louise Rosenblatt's different stances...... We need to use our professional judgment about when and where to get involved in consciousness raising, in making the process explicit. When a reader is aesthetically involved in a beautiful piece of writing, then there should be no interruptions, no deep discussions. There needs to be lots of opportunity to respond to the reading -- crying, laughing, loving, hating..... Talking and thinking about miscues makes the reading process more visible and as a result it takes an efferent stance. Frank Smith worries that when teachers get hold of a teaching idea, they let it overwhelm teaching. He wanted to make sure that we kept in mind that as much as possible readers have the opportunity to take the aesthetic stance. We need to keep a perspective about consciousness raising. (Yetta) From Roxanne Of course what I'm doing is teaching him to use meaning (his smart brain) along with visual (his reading brain) but what has amazed me is ... that helping this student understand how his reading "works" as opposed to just prompting him to use all 3 cueing systems can be very powerful. From Hugo I think one of its main strengths is that it treats students as people who can and must contribute to their own learning, their own growth - as subjects rather than objects. From Jeanne pretty much on an "in the teachable moment" The power of the practitioner (knowledgeable and experienced professionals) is obvious.......Yetta.. |
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Yetta We have had very sophisticated insights from many of you about your work with RMA with a variety of settings and students. We hope that those of you new to RMA will feel very free to ask specific questions about any procedures and any ideas that don't make sense or you're not sure about. The whole purpose of this discussion is to engage in wondering about how people read. There is a wealth of knowledge on this listserve in addition to the RMA experiences Alan, Prisca, Heidi, and I have been involved in so take advantage. Yetta. |
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Jayne Yetta and all, I would like to know how one begins the miscue analysis discussions.....what is the procedure? I am a reading specialist in a small school district in southern New Jersey. Our population does not have too many struggling readers, but for those who are...and even for those who are not, I think miscue analysis would benefit their metacognitive process. Thanks for all your help...in advance! Jayne |
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Yetta
Perhaps Heidi will
address this more......... She is so good in getting kids to think
about what reading is all about and starting the conversation. I'm
convinced that a lot of how teaching works best is related to how we
talk with kids in a collaborative, interesting way. Kids sense when we
are really thinking about what they are saying and taking their Yetta |
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Heidi Thank you, Yetta. It's so funny because I always try to remember what I said that piques the interests of the students and gets us started. I have a routine that initiates the idea of miscues and reflective discussions about reading. No matter how challenging the group, I always seem to have buy-in. I am fully convinced that students really want to read and make meaning and that fear and past experiences get in the way. I always begin by having students write their definition of reading, and I share them anonymously with the class. I do not comment on them, I just read them. We also do a Burke Reading Inventory (Goodman, Watson, and Burke, 2005). I use a number of strategies out of the strategy book written by Goodman, Watson, and Burke (1996). Depending on the time frame and class size, I put together a couple of tables and create a display of absolutely everything I can get my hands on that people read- receipts, bills, maps, calculators, manuals, books, magazines, etc. I give the students time to look at the items and touch them. For some reason, it is very important for the students to be able to touch the artifacts (same with new books—not used--they love to touch and feel the books--"brand new, Miss," they ask). As they walk around the table, they engage in conversations with each other. When I bring them together as a group, they determine that we read all day long in a variety of ways. If I can't have a table set up, I group them and have them write down everything in the classroom they can read. This also stimulates discussion. Following this, I introduce the "Boat in the Basement" (see K. Goodman, On Reading). We discuss how the brain is a meaning-making organ. We also look at optical illusions and talk about perception. Next we read one of those letters with the mixed up words, and by this time, the kids begin to rethink their thinking about reading as reading all the words "right." We do some cloze activities as a class out of the strategy book, so students can see that they know how text works because they are users of language. They learn that the text can help shape their predictions, and that often there are multiple words and ideas that make sense within the structure of the text that don't change the meaning of the text. Then I introduce the psycholinguistic reading strategies and the cueing systems. The students learn about miscues. We use Yetta's text and Ruth Davenport's text to learn the types of miscues and how to mark them. Then we practice with each other in small groups. The readers listen to Betsy and Gary read, and they mark and code the miscues for the following: Syntactic Acceptability, Semantic Acceptability, and whether there was a partial meaning change or a full meaning change. They also determine graphic similarity for word-to-word substitutions. Last, they look at whether the reader self-corrected and/or needed to self-correct. They then compare their marking and coding to Yetta, Dorothy, and Caroline's marking and coding. We then discuss this as a class. After all this, they are ready to begin working in their collaborative groups. Sometimes, I will also incorporate strategy lessons from Debra Goodman's book The Reading Detective Club. Even though the book was written for middle school students, the high school students really enjoy working through some of the cases. This is a tome, but it works. By this time, the students are really into it--all the way from the toughest gang bangers to the most self-conscious ELL students. Heidi |
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Deb This is a great post, Yetta. I've never heard Betsy or Gary read but I've seen the transcript. Are there tapes, CD's, etc. of them reading for sale? Thanks, Deb |
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Prisca Deb - Yetta will know this but I think Sharon Murphy has the recordings posted on a website. I just tried to find it and couldn't. If you'd like a CD, Joel Brown in Tucson I'm sure would send you one. Prisca |
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Heidi Hi there, I just wanted to remind everyone that Betsy reading The Man Who Kept House is on Ken and Yetta’s Web site: http://www.u.arizona.edu/~kgoodman/ Prisca, I will forward Deb’s e-mail to Joel and CC you, as his e-mail has changed and I’m not sure who all has it. Heidi |
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Yetta Hi all! It's Yetta....... I'll be around now for a few hours.....will take a break and then be back again for late evening for the middle of the country and the west coast. I want folks to know that if you have any specific questions, comments or concerns, I am happy to hear from you ..... <ygoodman@u.arizona.edu>Two web site emails that some of you might be interested in.... Ken Goodman and I have a web site that has Wendy's tape reading The Man Who Kept House (See the Reading Miscue Inventory for the typescript both blank and marked and Betsy's retelling), and other readers on it. Our web site address is www.u.arizona.edu/~kgoodman/ Another great site for tapes, transcripts, retelling of readers from 8 - 13 years of age reading a story by Arthur Clark called Space Pet is on a Podcast at York University. Sharon Murphy has those tapes for her teacher education students available. You can get the podcast at www.edu.yorku.ca/courses If you have difficulty with the www address you can ask Sharon directly about a better address smurphy@edu.yorku.ca These are all good tapes to help you learn about miscue. They can be used with students too, to help them decide about the power of miscues. Yetta |
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Prisca Hi, Jayne - How I begin depends on the situation I'm in. If it's a more formal RMA discussion that includes playing part of a tape, I give the student(s) a copy of the sentence/ paragraph we're going to listen to and a pencil and ask them to mark anything they hear on the tape that is different than what's on the paper (we read it together once or twice first). Then I play the tape. Sometimes I have to replay the tape a time or two because some miscues are hard to hear. Then I ask questions like: What did you hear the reader say on the tape? What do you think about that miscue? Does it make sense? Does it sound like language? Did the reader correct it? Did he/she have to correct it to make sense?
The conversation flows but those are the kinds of guiding questions to keep in mind. If it's an informal "on the spot" RMA discussion, I usually wait until the reader finishes the page or whatever and ask something like: Did you hear what you said here (point to the part)? (Usually they won't, especially if they're not sure what the purpose is in going back to it) The text says "..." and you read "...". Why do you think you said that? Does it make sense? Does it sound like language? Did you correct it? Did you have to correct it to make sense?
I "make a big deal" about how brilliant it was of the reader to make that miscue, emphasizing that that's what ALL good readers do. He/she knows how to do it too and needs to practice that more often. Kids who are used to being corrected are often "nervous" with this conversation and sometimes say that the miscue doesn't make sense when it does because they think their reading has to be "perfect". Once the kids begin to see you're showing them strengths and how smart they are, they relax and become more involved in the conversation. I posted one RMA discussion with a group of boys, based on a tape, yesterday. I'll find one that's "on the spot" and maybe another taped one and will post them. I'll be back shortly! Prisca Please try this, Jayne. Once you do it and see the power for you and for the kids, it becomes more natural. Prisca |
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Prisca
Jayne and All - Text: After Gregory went to bed, Mother Goat said, “I’m afraid Gregory will eat my clothes hamper."
Ben read: After
George went to bed, Mother Goat said, “I’m after, I’m afraid George will
eat my clothes hamper."
Text: “Frog,”
cried the thing. Eventually, through repeated RMA experiences Valerie revalued herself as a reader. RMA plays a vital role in the lives of kids! Prisca |
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Jayne Thank you! I had intended on printing your email previously, but had accidentally deleted it. Thanks so much!! Jayne |
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Alan I wanted to add to Prisca's response to Jayne's posting about how to begin RMA discussions. I think it's important to be selective in the kinds of miscues we bring up for discussions. When I'm recording a reader, I make a star beside those miscues I think would be good for discussion as I'm first listening or replaying. There are generally two kinds of miscues that I pick: 1) high quality miscues that were not corrected, and 2) miscues that aren't high quality but that give an idea of what a reader could have been predicting, and were then corrected. I call these latter ones, "twofers" because you can talk about two good things that readers do--continually predict, and then self-correct if the prediction doesn't ultimately pan out--both in the one miscue. Here are some examples of the first type--high quality substitutions, omissions or insertions: Text: You don't know what hard work is! You should try cutting wood! Tom: You don't know what hard work is! You try chopping wood! Both of Tom's miscues, the omission of 'should' and the substitution of chopping/cutting, were high quality and didn't disrupt meaning. They weren't corrected nor should they have been. I call these "garden variety miscues", the types we all make and are rarely aware of. When you ask a reader of either or both miscues, "Does this miscue make sense?" (yes) and then, "Did you correct it?" (no) and then, "Should you correct it?" if the reader says yes, you then have an opportunity to share with the reader what efficient (good) readers do. Efficient readers DON'T correct these miscues because they don't need to. They aren't even often aware of these miscues. Once you forward the idea that readers don't need to correct all miscues and that "good readers" make the same kinds of miscues that they just made and don't correct them, then you open an avenue for discussing meaning making. An example of the second "two for one" type where you can talk about a prediction and then correction: Text: So she packed him a lunch and made him go off to school. Tom: So she picked--she packed him a lunch and made him go off to school. Here the reader initially read "packed" as "picked." When he listened to the miscue he said he thought the story was going to say something like, "She picked out some food for his lunch," but "she picked him a lunch" didn't really make that much sense, so he went back and "fixed it." Two good things going on: "picked" represents an entirely reasonable prediction--it's a verb for a verb and it's part of a structure that the author could have used. But ultimately it didn't work out--Tom saw that--and so he corrected it. When I pointed out that these are things that "good readers do," you could see it boost him. Yetta has said, "Everything readers do they do because of what they know about language and what they know about the world," and when you pick these kinds of miscues, you can begin to get at what readers already know and continue to support them. The reason why I think it's best to pick high quality miscues or miscues that were corrected is because they open the door to good discussions about the underlying thinking process. The question I ask myself is, "What did the reader have to know to produce this miscue?" On the other hand, if you choose to focus on a low quality miscue that wasn't corrected, then there isn't much to say about it. The message the reader is likely to get is more of the same: "I didn't correct it, I was reading too fast, I wasn't paying attention again," which really is not true anyway. This can also be done in the teachable moment when you make a miscue in front of class, in a small group, in a whole class, etc., once you know what to look for. Sorry for the long posting. Alan Alan D. Flurkey |
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John Dear Yetta & others, I have enjoyed reading all your posts. I think many of you have enabled me to give a "name" to something that has happened in our classroom. I knew it felt worthwhile to let it happen, but now I have considered it more thoughtfully. This year more than ever I have students who moved from their knees, to the arms of the chair, to standing next to me during read aloud. (My rule in read aloud had been I have to see students' eyes; they can get comfortable.) But, obviously when they get to the side of the chair, I can't see their eyes, nor when they are standing behind me. What has happened is that these students "catch" my miscues. So quite naturally we have had to negotiate if, and when, somebody breaks into our reading. I noticed that when I leave a word out, or transpose words (move "said" around, etc.) nobody bothers to "correct" me. However when I read "Bluebird" for the villain Bluebeard, it has now become the "joke" of my reading of this book. And, today they had to correct me when I read that Red Riding hood was expected to give Henry Grimm the kiss to wake him up, when it was actually Goldilocks. (Big silly mistake in comprehending the story, but I obviously anticipated w/o taking in any visual info.) At times like this, and others, I may take just moment to say why I think I miscued. I have a severe hearing impaired child who sort of claimed my right shoulder spot in this book. I know she is following my read aloud because she laughs or gasps at just the right times, and she too catches my miscues. She is a great lip reader, but this seems to be successful too. I also have about 4 kids who asked their parents to buy the book for them, so they are reading along on the carpet. These kids are 8, 9 & 10 and they can't wait to get to the carpet after lunch, and what's good about "lap-reading" with toddlers can have applications to kids a lot older. I knew catching me in read aloud seemed like it was helpful for building our community of readers. I didn't really name the reasons why until today.
Thanks, |
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Yetta
John -- Your story
is beautiful and touching. Your students are so fortunate to be members
of the community you foster. Teachers invent pedagogy when they are
sensitive to their students and have the knowledge to understand and act
on what they find before them. It doesn't need a label..... but when
we name it, |
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Prisca What a rich classroom you have, John! Like so many other teachers we've heard from, you intuitively understand the power in helping kids understand and develop insight into the reading process, evaluate miscues for whether or not they make sense, etc. Keep up the great work! Prisca |
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Linda Does anyone have experience using RMA with 6 year olds (those entering first grade)? Linda |
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Deb Great question! Yes, I do. The reader needs to be able to read enough words that patterns of miscues show up otherwise what you might learn may not be accurate enough to make curricular and instructional decisions for this reader. That aside, the sooner the kids learn that miscues are normal and part of everyone's reading life the better. I've used it on an individual basis with kids as young as 4 that are 'reading' more complex texts than what we normally think of a 4 yr. being able to do. I've only done it a couple of times with 4 yr. olds. Five is fine and 6 is great. I hear questions (many, many questions) behind your one question. I'm signing off the internet until this evening but I'll check back then to see if any of your questions come pouring (?) out. Prisca may know more (Heidi, Alan, and Yetta definitely will know more than I do). Deb |
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Prisca We'll see if anyone else responds to this, Linda. Generally, I think, kids entering first grade aren't ready to listen to a tape of themselves reading. However, RMA-types discussions about whether reading makes sense, what to do when it doesn't make sense, strategies good readers use when they read, etc., during instruction, guided reading, etc., are certainly appropriate. Beginning readers need to be reminded that their goal is to make sense. Hopefully there are first grade teachers who can add to this! Prisca |
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Alan I agree with Prisca. The youngest readers may or may not be able to get a handle on what a miscue is (it depends on the reader). As a first grade teacher, I learned that sometimes readers construct a different message from what I had intended. I wanted to be careful not to inadvertently steer readers toward focusing on getting words. But I don't think there's a downside to keeping the focus on making sense. Alan |
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Deb These posts have made me think about what I did and did not do. I used the RMA/RMI information to structure curriculum and subsequent learning engagements however I didn't spend a lot of time talking with the child about their miscues per se. I would talk to them about what I heard them say and we would talk about language use and how different uses dictate the words used to convey meaning and other things of that nature but not very deeply. If THEY (kids) were interested in digging some more (4-6 yr. olds may not be and I'm not sure they should be) we might listen to the tape and talk about it and we might not - depends on the child and the questions the child raises. If a parent wanted to know more then I would set up time for them to come in and I could explain it, have them experience it, and the go over their own miscues, etc. I think Alan is right in that we have to make sure we are interpreted right if we bring this up with kids. We don't want to scare them or indicate that their reading is 'wrong'. Deb |
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David I collected a fair amount of RMI data on my kindergarten friends during my final three years of classroom teaching at the elementary school level. Although I never did the replay of the child's reading that is commonly used in a RMA session, I often had the RMA-type discussions with the children as described by Prisca (and confirmed by Alan and Deb). A discussion of the theoretical and conceptual frameworks related to RMA/RMI use with beginning young readers could become lengthy and is certainly beyond the scope of a listserv post. However, I think it important here for readers to consider the value of the data collected and the RMA type sessions possible with other stakeholders (parents, as Deb mentions; reading specialist; administrators, etc.) who may be over-focused on the child's "accurate" interaction with the surface features of text (particularly at the expense of maintaining meaning). I recommend Debi, Alan, and Yetta's chapter (Effective Young Beginning Readers. (2007). Yetta Goodman & Prisca Martens, editors; published by Erlbaum) for recent discussion on the amazing capabilities of children. Thank you all for sharing such rich and important thinking about children. David |
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Michelle I am responding to Prisca's comments re: RMA being appropriate for first graders. I have taught both kindergarten and SK, so my experience has been that a good number of my kindergartners have indeed begun guided reading in my classroom. I am Reading Recovery trained, so we talk about the strategies that good readers use all the time! By the time they roll into first grade I could absolutely see RMA being successful there. From what I've learned from the discussions thus far, I think that collaborative RMA sessions would be quite successful at this level. First though, trust must be established within the learning community, so it certainly wouldn't be something I'd start right up with in the beginning of the year. If it were a looping situation, yes. I think with this age group it would be helpful for the teacher to record him/herself reading different types of materials and use those recordings as a starting point. I think aloud all the time with my students, so they are used to that and would, I feel, easily transition into doing the same.
Michelle LaMattina
Mullen |
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Prisca Wow, Michelle! That's great! You're laying such a strong foundation for your students! I agree that trust would have to be established first (that's true in any grade). Also like any grade, how much you can do and when will depend on what experiences the children have had before getting to you. Your students have a solid base of reading as constructing meaning. Other students who are overly concerned with accuracy, phonics out of context, etc., might need some support before they're able to have the discussions you talk about. Keep up the great work! Prisca |
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Yetta First though, trust must be established within the learning community..... Yes.... the kids must trust the teachers and the teachers must believe and trust that kids do learn.......... Yetta |
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Bonita Bear with me--RMI is quite new. Although I have always used metacognition with students, I have never tried it in the way I have heard described thus far in this discussion. I am an amateur trying to get more vision. I love the transcripts that have been shared thus far--they help me to see/hear better. I'd like to learn more about the kinds of things that would come up in an RMI and how the teacher might structure learning around them. Thus far I have mostly heard about the use of contextual, sound, and picture clues to figure out word meaning. Here are some things I have seen during student reading over the years that do not seem to fit the discussion thus far and I would love to hear them in RMI context. What about when a child repeats lines,phrases, or words often (almost like a reading stutter)? A child who skips lines and keeps going not noticing the loss of meaning? A child who struggles verbally with every word (to where I even lose track of where we are) but then can read silently and explain what is happening? A child who misses meaning and makes up stuff to fill in the blanks and feels confident with the results? I would love to hear if these things come up in RMI (I do work with upper grade students who have had heavy decoding practice --perhaps out of balance focus through their school years...). :)Bonita |
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Heidi Hi Bonita, From my own experience, when a reader has a regression, he or she is working to make meaning of text. The reader is looking for cues to make meaning of what he/she is reading. My question on skipping lines would be: Was the reader able to demonstrate understanding in a retelling? For me, if the reader understands what he/she was reading, I don't worry about it. I look at the omission from within the paragraph and the larger story and see if omitting lines truly disrupted meaning. The University of Arizona has an Eye Movement Miscue Analysis Lab, and I like to take readers up to the lab to read on the eye tracking machine, as this often sheds light on the situations you mention. With respect to a student who struggles verbally with every word, but reads silently and can give a retelling, I would say that the student is uncomfortable reading aloud, and given time, encouragement and support, that may change. If the student had difficulty retelling the story, I would think about whether the text was too difficult, but I say that with a note of caution as evidenced by Betsy reading "The Man who Kept House," which you can listen to on Yetta and Ken's Web site. Last, I have rarely experienced a reader making up stuff. It's happened a couple of times over a five-year period. I would wonder whether the student was seeking attention? It's just a thought. I am sure Yetta, Prisca, or Alan will weigh in on this. Thank you for your thoughtful questions; I really enjoyed thinking about the questions you posed. Heidi |
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Yetta Response to Bonita… What about when a child repeats lines,phrases, or words often (almost like a reading stutter)? Is this done continuously? Is the reader reading materials within his/her interest and general ability? Is this done on specific parts of the text? Are they rereading to change their intonation? Correct an aspect of the text? These are things we do look for in miscue analysis. Each provides a different aspect of the reader. A child who skips lines and keeps going not noticing the loss of meaning? This is rare for readers. Again is the text they are reading something they have self-selected? Try both this reader and the one above on material more relevant to their interests. Let them choose something they want to read and enjoy. Does that make a difference? A child who struggles verbally with every word (to where I even lose track of where we are) but then can read silently and explain what is happening? This also seems to be related to the difficulty or lack of readability of the text for this particular reader. A child who misses meaning and makes up stuff to fill in the blanks and feels confident with the results? Usually in young children we find readers who read confidently to make sense. This is sometimes done by young developing readers because they want reading to make sense. I would love to hear if these things come up in RMI (I do work with upper grade students who have had heavy decoding practice --perhaps out of balance focus through their school years...). You might want to use the Burke Reading Inventory to find out what these readers think reading is. Or have a discussion with them to find out what their definition of reading is. They seem to be what I sometimes call instruction dependent readers who decide reading is what they think teachers expect them to do rather than reading for their own meaning making. Yetta |
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Bonita Bingo, Yetta. You reiterated what I have been thinking for a long time. My take is that these are readers who want to "show" they can read it, when most of the time during independent reading they are practicing heavy doses of word avoidance. I believe they have learned to sort of "play" the school game whenever they are called on to perform. I can see how RMI as described by Heidi (I think that was who described her classroom process) could change their perspective on how to approach text. One of my frustrations is the "just right" book and reading level. These students (and I am talking about a select few, but the numbers have been growing each year that I have taught fifth grade) often claim "just right" books far away from where they can actually understand. Part of this is some of these children are excellent word callers and so believe (since they can word call) they ought to be reading these books that are at a frustration level of comprehension; some choose a book and cannot read it, but do not want to be seen reading anything that might be perceived as easy and so will lock down on a big book despite that they are not actually reading it. It is cultural, I believe, in that a cultural climate has been set at the school and district (through focus on testing, rating, ranking) that has left these students struggling to feel adequate. So...how does one address turning that culture around in the classroom in a single year? I can see how RMI might work, still trying to see it in the context of a class of readers of varying levels. Do we do group RMI in heterogenous groups? Homogenous groups? No groups at all (argh--so difficult with 30-34 other children who must be quietly busy elsewhere)? If we do it homogenous--don't we reinforce the inadequate feelings of these readers? If we do it heterogenous--how do we use text that will work for these readers? Love to hear more--and yes, obviously, I need to buy and read the books. :)Bonita |
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Heidi From my experience, if you have groups of readers at different levels, you can introduce RMA in heterogeneous groups. I have seen the reciprocal relationship benefit all readers. With regard to texts for the RMA, I have a variety of texts. The students volunteer to read with the expectation that everyone will read a text. The students self-select the text they feel comfortable reading, and it's always good for them to experience some tension because the tension leads to the growth process. With regard to choosing a book, I am under pressure to use lexile levels; however, I try to ignore that to the best of my ability. Instead, we go over how to choose a book. It's really easy with adolescents because we list all of the ways to choose a book on one side of the board, and we list all of the ways to choose a CD on the other side of the board. Then we compare, and the students find out that they can choose a book using the same strategies. I'm not sure that the CD analogy will work with younger readers, though. Next we list all of the genres of reading that we can recall. By the time we are done, we have filled two white boards. Then it becomes no excuses time. There are no excuses. We talk about the places to find books, and they are now accountable for having a book that they are interested in reading. When they finish a book, they are expected to find another one. I use reader response discussion methods, and the whole dynamic in the room has shifted because the students are now reading from interest and not ability levels. No one has to choose a particular book to save face any more. The students who read at lower levels (school districts subscribe to levels) share their books freely with the class, and the students talk and share ideas because they are focused on the response. Through all of this and in the RMA class, the class grows as a community. It's really a beautiful thing to observe and also in which to participate, as I often share with the students. I have been reading Gee (2008) on discourse this past semester, and I shared parts of Gee that I found meaningful with them and asked their response. It really debunked the idea of the dictionary as the sole authority on meaning and instead helped them think about language in terms of context, culture, and social practices. Heidi |
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Sheilah I read the article and am thoroughly enjoying reading the discussions on-line. I teach Reading Recovery and now have a deeper meaning of analyzing miscues with my students. I love hearing about the focus on meaning as we teach our students to read. I'm greatly disturbed that our school is using DIBELS and AIMS web to determine who is and who is not a good reader. Those assessments do not value "real" reading, but only nonsense word-reading and how many words a child can read in a minute. I fear my administrator and school psychologists will mandate a change in our reading curriculum, emphasizing these features of the required assessments. Sheilah Neal ( Illinois ) |
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Prisca Your words echo what's happening in so many schools, Sheilah. It's teachers like you who understand what reading is and how to really support children as readers who will make a difference. Have you tried sharing some of the brilliant miscues your students make and their effective/efficient use of strategies with your administrators? Maybe if they get to really "know" the kids as readers their perspectives will change (we can always hope anyway!)! Prisca |
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Heidi Sheilah, I felt much the same way five years ago when the principal at the time instituted a fully scripted reading program. In a training session, we were told to use dog clickers to “click out the syllables” as the students sounded out the words. The trainers, thankfully, recommended that the school not have me teach the class because they felt I was not supportive of the program (I wasn’t). After trying unsuccessfully to change his mind about the program, the building administrator gave me a section of reading to teach and promised not to interfere. He wanted to compare results. Needless to say, the scripted program has since gone away (we threw the rest of it out last fall when we cleaned out the long-term storage locker) and as I mentioned yesterday, test scores have continued to improve dramatically for our learners. More importantly, students are reading and reading for meaning. I know situations don’t always work this way, but I believe in my heart that teachers hold more power than we sometimes believe because we know our students, and we know what works. Heidi |
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Pam Amen! Our district is currently looking at both programs, and I am fearful. Does anyone know of a chart that shows the differences between these two programs; maybe a pros and cons sort of thing? Thanks, Pam Warren
Intermediate
Literacy Coordinator/4th Grade Teacher |
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Sheilah I don't know of a chart, but I posted earlier that they are basically the same assessment, with a few differences. AIMS web also assesses math, but I'm not sure about math for DIBELS. We used AIMS web this year, and palm pilots were furnished for scoring the tests. Thanks, Sheilah |
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Deb One book you need to read is The Truth About DIBELS by Ken Goodman. If you buy it new then you get a DVD of children doing DIBELS and it is eye opening. I would start (like I have my undergrad/grad. students do: Make a list of the 5 most important points that Ken makes. Then step back and make the counterargument for them. This makes one look at the issues from a different perspective and will help make your chart stronger. Pro's are abundant on the internet and the NCLB. The con's such as Ken presents are not. I don't know anything about the AIMs program. If anyone does please post. Talk to you all soon, Deb |
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Cheryl It is an excellent book! I highly recommend it. Cheryl |
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Sheilah I have The Truth About DIBELS by Ken Goodman (any relation to Yetta?). Great book from my point of view! Sheilah |
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Yetta
Ken and Yetta have
spent almost 56 years together as husband and wife....... Understanding that there is NO reading taking place when comprehension or making sense of print is not the focus of the reader makes a big difference in how we respond to children. In England they talk about listening to kids read -- But the way in which we listen is dependent on what we believe that reading is. So DIBELS doesn't test reading..... it is a test of nonsense words or simple one syllable English words out of the context of language. The concept of revaluing is also something that Ken introduced many years ago. He believed that reading is something people are capable of doing. Teaching reading is not a remedial task rather it is a process of supporting readers to make sense of print. Miscue analysis is a blueprint that shows us that. As Ken says.... miscue analysis is a window on the reading process. Reading is transacting with authors through language. Yetta |
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Karen An interview that explains AIMS and DIBELS history
http://www.ednews.org/articles/188/1/An-Interview-with-Gary-Germann-
About-Response-to-Intervention-and-AIMSweb-Progress-Monitoring-System/Page1.html
Karen |
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Jeanne Hey, Sheilah and everyone, Our district uses DIBELS too. When I work with my fifth graders I always take the time to explain that the purpose of asking them to read out loud is not to see how fast they can read-we always focus on the idea that reading is making sense and thinking. Oral fluency is not just reading rate (which should be a porridge rate-not too fast and not too slow), but accuracy (they understand that reading 170 words in a minute and misreading every other word is not good-nobody could understand you) and the ability to read with expression something that you have not had a chance to practice. I explain that the "people who are experts on how reading works" say that if you can read at a just right rate with accuracy and expression than the odds are very good that you understand it and that's why I don't ask you any questions. We're taking a look at comprehension in an oral kind of way. I used to complain a great deal about taking so much time to DIBEL but now I see that it's a chance to seize the moment for reciprocal miscue analysis. Jeanne |
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Yvonne Oh Sheilah, How sad for your school. It's the deficit model rearing its ugly head again. I do believe that a major change in paradigm is needed to counter NCLB, Reading First, and all the other nonsense that is going on in way too many of our schools. But, the change in paradigm starts with us teachers. So, we have to be like Carl Chew, Teri Pinney, Don Perl, and Doug Ward. There may be others of whom I am not aware. Teri Pinney and Doug Ward are on YouTube. You can get the interview with Carl Chew from Substance, and if you contact me offline, I can send you the interview with Don Perl. Offline e-mail: hanalei@indra.com I do know that when I help parents understand the reading process and how reading and writing are linked, they change their views. So, some of you might want to put together something about the reading process and how reading and writing are linked for "Back to School Night" or some kind of event. Parents, I have found, like to learn. So many of the "cutsie" things we do to bring parents to school can be replaced with more MEANINGFUL engagements, which help them learn. In addition, when you have conferences with parents, tell them what their children's strengths are with regards to reading and writing as well as other subject areas. This will also inform them about good teaching practices and how we learn. Yvonne Siu-Runyan |
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Yetta Jeanne -- I wonder how you DIBEL and relate it to miscue analysis? Yetta |
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Jeanne Yetta, After my students understand the purpose of reading these three passages out loud-the three aspects of oral fluency-they'll read the first passage. I never use a timer that buzzes, rings, chimes, etc. because it startles me too much. Anyway, the protocol for a comprehension check in fifth grade DIBELS is a retelling. However, it is unlike any retelling known to people, has nothing to do with meaning making, and nearly impossible for me to accomplish. The student is supposed to retell and I am supposed to keep track of how many words the student uses-not what the student is saying, but a simple count of words. The theory is that if a student comprehends they will use half the words to retell what they read. Obviously, this theory doesn't take into account the person who can talk on and on and say nothing. I guess this might work for a robot, but it doesn't work for people. So what I do instead is talk to my students about the misreads always reminding them that everyone misreads what they haven't had a chance to practice. We talk a lot about whether or not it was really necessary to correct "a" for "the" or any other misread that doesn't change meaning or even makes better sense than what is written there. It works for me and for my students, too. Jeanne |
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Yetta Keep in mind that a report was just issued that raises many questions about such tests because up to this date, they show no improvement in the area of reading comprehension. We have to remind psychologists and administrators that good teaching (knowledgeable teachers) have the greatest influence on reading achievement. We need to show, demonstrate, argue, be strong that a well informed teacher is the most effective element in a rich reading curriculum. Yetta.. |
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Cheryl Hi Everyone, I am so thoroughly enjoying this dialogue! You are all wonderful and so refreshing! I share your concern. However my concern is with a close relative of DIBELS. Has anyone heard of I-Station’s Indicators of Progress, ISIP? My district is going to use that rather than the state K-2 reading assessment next year. Our Tier 2 and Tier 3 intervention will be I-Station. Anyone familiar with these? I would love to hear thoughts regarding this assessment and “intervention” if anyone is familiar with these. I will not offer my opinion, I’d like to hear what others think first.
Thoughts? |
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Yetta Hi all -- It's Yetta......... I have just spent some time reading everyone's post. I've responded a bit and I'm going to take a break for dinner and cooling off. We are in the wonderful southwest desert in Southern Arizona and the temperature is over 100 degrees today but we've had a beautiful April and May as the prickly pear, palo verde trees, and other desert plants paint this desert in shades of yellow and pale green. This is the desert that Byrd Baylor writes so beautifully about. Come visit us in Tucson in July for the Whole Language Umbrella conference. You can find information on the NCTE website. You'll learn more about miscues, RMA and miscue analysis and theme cycles and working with ELLs and bilingual kids but most important you will find others like yourselves excited about finding ways to develop as a professional. I didn't mean to wax eloquent at this point. I just wanted folks to know I'm taking a break but I'll be back soon. I love these discussions and your insights and questions are really thought provoking. Yetta |
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Priscilla I've used MA with deaf students in CO when I was a director/curriculum person as well as currently in classrooms where I am mentoring teachers who struggle to understand how to use assessment to guide instructional decision making. And you are right - the use of ASL provides a very good window into their thinking processes. A couple of weeks ago I was modeling how to use the DRA and MA with a student who was reading a story about a sporting event. The first time he got to the word "stop watch" he signed /stop/ and /watch/ - as in watching a movie and kept reading. When he got a little further down and encountered the word again, he fingerspelled it - recognizing his first attempt did not make sense but still not sure what the word was. (For those of you unfamiliar with deaf ed, many students use fingerspelling as a substitution when they don't recognize a word they encounter in text). The third time he encountered the word, he fingerspelled it, then the light bulb went on in his head and he signed /stop watch/ correctly and was able to use it again later on in the text with no difficulty. When he was done reading, we went back to the passage and I asked him how he figured out what the word was. At first he shrugged (I don't think anyone had ever asked him anything like this). Then he said, I just figured out it was a sporting story and you use stop watches so it made sense. BINGO!
Priscilla Shannon
Gutierrez |
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Richard Hello friends, It has been a very stimulating conversation. What questions and comments are still taking shape in your head? Please get them submitted to the listserve soon. The discussion will officially come to an end in about eight hours. Thank you. |
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Bonita Last day? Wow--that was fast. I am going to have to do some major reading over summer break so I feel more
versed and ready for this in the classroom....are there any places in the Los Angeles Area engaged in RMI as a
practice?
:)Bonita |
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Meredith Bonita, I am north of Santa Barbara one hour but have been using RMA since the mid 80s when I first had a class in it. When I was a classroom teacher I used it and now I spend one week of my LA/reading class explaining how beneficial it is. I have also completed RMAs on children whose parents have contacted me about their son/daughter's reading. Maybe we could meet some time. I can easily get to the LA area and have friends there. Meredith Larson, Ph.D. |
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Bonita Excellent, Meredith, |
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Yetta How wonderful to start your own support group..... There is nothing more powerful to me that my colleagues with whom I argue, cry, laugh, learn, continue my professional development. I hope you all find such a group in your life. It is a community of learners for teachers..... In the same way that a community of learners works in classrooms, they work in schools or across schools when teachers come together. Then you can share your RMI's, RMA's, and all the innovations you continue to develop in your own classrooms in response to your students. All the best............. Yetta |
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Dave As the online RMA/RMI conversation that Richard arranged with Yetta, Alan, Prisca, and Heidi comes to a close, I want to thank everyone for a very interesting three days together. I am also interested to learn where the chapter that Yetta shared at the beginning of our discussion will be going. In other words, will there be a new version of Retrospective Miscue Analysis, perhaps published by Richard C. Owen in the works? Another question for Heidi, Prisca, Alan, and Yetta: Is there a question that you anticipated to receive the past few days that was not asked? If so, would you share you thinking of how you might have answered it? Thank you all, Dave |
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Heidi Dave, As this is the first online discussion forum in which I have participated, I don’t think I had any expectations going in. I am so excited to have taken part in this online discussion because I think I have taken away so much more that what I have contributed. I think that should we do something like this again, we should have another classroom practitioner in elementary education who uses RMI and RMA in his/her classroom, as I am heavily focused on secondary. I have sensed a need through this forum for people to discuss RMI and RMA as a community of practice. I would like to see how we as a community can effect more of these open discussions and invite teachers to become part of the community. Heidi |
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Dave Thank you, Heidi. I look forward to meeting you and others in July as we continue this discussion in Tucson. Dave |
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Georgia Does RMA apply to parents who are wanting to learn to speak and read English and most likely, Spanish, as well? I am learning that many, many speak 'Spanish' but they do not read it; nor do they understand English. I know the best way is bilingual education but I live in the great state of blockheads--Nevada. The District has no questions as to how or what is a better way to teach, they have only answers--it must be their way from an approved list. Yes, I am retired. I just wanted to help an ESL teacher with teaching her parents to grasp English.. When I went to the room, there were 8 parents there, and they were given the Dolch list of words to memorize in English. They only speak well, their form of Spanish, so I brought my bilingual books with me. I thought there might be a breakthrough here using the Spanish. I thought maybe we could get talking started, you know, language. I really wanted to help this ESL teacher. But later, when I called the Principal, to ask if she would be a 'host school' if I applied for a NAC grant--NV Arts Council--to pay for the books, all she wanted to know was: were my books on the 'approved list'. Of course not, says I. Well then, you can't use them. Am I going nuts? Since when is it that kids can only read from an approved list--or parents? Since when must every book written be approved by 'the committee'. How does one reach non-English speaking parents? Do I have to meet them on the sly, at a laundromat to teach them? Maybe RMA presupposes some basics? What are they? Georgia |
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Prisca Unfortunately for the rest of us, Georgia, I don't think Nevada has the corner on "blockheads" (I love that!!!)! There is so much 'insanity' going on in the name of 'education' and 'reading' that nothing surprises me anymore! My area is not bilingual education so hopefully someone else out there will be able to provide more insights for you than I can. I have not worked with someone who does not speak English. I do believe, though, that THE key to any strategy, instructional tool, etc. (of which RMA is one) is the teacher. Smart teachers adapt what they know to their specific situations and get amazing results. I have no doubts from your e-mail that you are one of those teachers! Prisca P.S. Has anyone heard of a program called the "100 Book Challenge"? It's published by the American Reading Company. I just heard about this last week when I was visiting the classroom of a former student. Classrooms buy classroom libraries with a range of children's literature, the students read a minimum of 15 minutes a day (children's literature they choose) during which the teacher reads individually with at least one student, and they read at home (there's a part that involves informing parents). What I don't like is that for every so much reading kids get prizes. BUT, guess what they're finding? The kids' reading is improving. There are Title 1 schools involved here who are making gains and meeting AYP. Imagine that - give kids time to read books they want to read and their reading improves! The program is not all over because of the cost ($3300/classroom to buy children's lit, teacher materials, etc.). That's the insanity part - if it "works", why can't kids just READ!!! |
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Yvonne Hi Georgia, Your post showed the confusion and insanity out there. Thanks for your anecdote. Geez...... And good for you that you are doing something so worthwhile and adds value. To your question, yup, meet them on the sly. Can't go in through the front door, so use the back one. Yvonne Siu-Runyan |
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Barb Hi All,When I student taught back in 2005 both schools that I taught at had this program. However, there were no physical prizes the teachers found other incentives for the students (i.e., every 100 lines read the students received something from the office-pencil, eraser or sticker) Classroom teachers had star charts going and would let students pick from a hat-pieces of paper that had things like lunch with teacher, game with the principal or sit at the teachers desk for the day. Each student had a bag with folder, reading log, word/skills card and 1-2 books to go home every night. It was amazing what these Kindergarteners and second graders were reading at the end of the year. I made copies of the skill cards to use with my future classes, but have not had the opportunity to do so yet. I am currently working on my Master's in Early Childhood with a Literacy Focus at The University of Akron. I have learned so much more from my graduate courses about teaching and assessments for reading. Especially RMA, but now I believe that I can incorporate all of these things into my classroom. Barb Yerian |
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Roxann I hesitate to use rewards with students but if one is going to use rewards for reading, why not reward with books? Rock |
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Jayne Rock, My sentiments exactly! I have had this debate in our district often! We have a day that celebrates reading...in fact, our date this year is May 29th. Each class presents something....a skit, song, whatever, that explains or demonstrates something the class has studied in reading this year. It is a very fun day! Two of our classes work together, one class (second grade) wrote their OWN play!, one class will demonstrate poetry cafe, etc. It is a fun-filled day...with the reward of celebration! Jayne PS If I had money from our district, I would award with a book...for sure! |
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Bonita I just read one post describing how to get started with high schoolers--middle schoolers. That was great and now I wish I was still teaching fifth next year! However, alas, I will be starting out with little ones, second graders, next year. I can visualize how to bring that description down a notch, but I would love to hear how you, Maureen, since you have worked with little ones, how you begin with RMI in a class of first or second graders. :)Bonita |
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Richard Good evening friends, Did you have a good three days? I know I did. I greatly appreciate the generosity of Yetta, Prisca, Alan, and Heidi, sharing their wisdom and experience and their valuable time. And I want to thank all of you for your thoughtful questions and active participation. I have to say there is something special about these scheduled conversations. I think it is the focus that we get by identifying a topic and having one or more guests with particular knowledge. I have been reading the exchanges over the three days. They have been brilliant. The dynamic has been positive and reflective. Such wonderful thinking coming from this group. In the next week or so we will clean up the transcript and prepare it for the website. When it is ready, I will let you know. There is much to consider in the exchanges. Much to digest. Thank you all! Please stay with us. We will soon announce another scheduled discussion. In the meantime, I encourage you to use the listserve to continue the discussion. If some of that discussion relates to RMA, I won't be surprised if one or another of our guests will be available from time to time. If you must unsubscribe, please follow the instructions at the bottom of each TLN listserve message. Or write to me off list. I wish you all a very good evening.Richard |
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Michele I have really enjoyed participating in this vital conversation! Thank you for taking the time to respond to my posts and for being out there standing up for teachers rights to teach well.
Michele Gennaoui
mgennaoui@sfdesales.org |
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Priscilla I stand in awe of the expertise and dedication of this group. I came into MA and RMA pretty late in my educational career and am still learning big time. A sincere thank you to all for elevating my knowledge - what a gift! Priscilla Shannon Gutierrez |
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Prisca
I want to thank everyone for the rich conversations we've had over the last few days. I've learned a lot and am now glad to have so many new colleagues across the country! I didn't really anticipate any particular questions, Dave - I figured the conversation would flow which it did. Thank you all!!! I also wanted to give everyone my e-mail address: pmartens@towson.edu. If at any point there is some question or issue I can help with, please don't hesitate to contact me. I hope to see you all in Tucson for WLU, San Antonio for NCTE, etc. Keep up the great work! Prisca |
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Jan
Dear all,
I have to say thank you to all too. I have been lurking, reading all the emails and learning a great deal. Many thanks for all the sharing of ideas. Jan |
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Jayne Thank you, thank you, thank you for all the wonderfully enriching conversations. Although I do not often write (this time of the year is CRAZY in schools, as you know), I have printed many of your emails to read and reflect upon over the summer. I truly am so thankful I was invited to join this listserv. Truthfully, I have no idea how I received the invitation, but it has been extremely enlightening! Jayne |
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Hugo Thanks also from north Wales. Up here in the hills there is nobody (apart from a long-suffering wife) prepared to stand still long enough to debate literacy. You are a lifeline to a literacy addict like me - the only people who do not think it is terminally weird to be thus addicted. Is this why conferences were invented? It's literally wonderful to have so many different viewpoints and insights, and to have instant access to so much expertise, at the click of a mouse. I wish you all well.
Hugo
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Tammy I have been lurking all week and am so grateful to you all for the insight and wonderful, rich conversation. Again, thank you Richard for hosting this. I will be pondering these points for weeks to come and wishing... WISHING I could get my self to Tucson for WLU. Tammy
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Joyce Richard, Yetta, and all, I thank-you so much for the opportunity to read the conversations about such a dynamic and important topic of RMI and RMA in action. While I have been "silent", I have learned a lot and will be sharing your expertise and ideas with many teachers. Within the area that I live, teachers have been left behind through NCLB. I am greatly concerned with the lack of administrative support for real learning in many of our public schools, but I keep fighting for WL support! Thanks! Joyce
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Yetta I believe that what Joyce is voicing is a serious issue for professional public education. Lots of the focus of NCLB is to prove that public education has failed in America. It is related to a belief on the part of some politicians that it is better to privatize education (charters, vouchers, private schools) so government does not have this expense to deal with educating the nation's youth. Part of this plan is to deprofessionalize teaching ....(Michael Apple has been dealing with the issue for decades ). Colleges of education as part of the higher education act are becoming targets to teach in education courses the programs that have been foisted on the states by NCLB. We must raise our own voices based on what we know and believe and let parents and administrators know that we have knowledge. The new teachers coming into teaching will need your support, your mentoring, your knowledge and the benefit of your experience. Good luck to us all............. yetta
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Yvonne And lastly, thanks to everyone (you special teachers) for the lively, informative discussion. Special thanks to Yetta, Alan, Prisca, and of course. Richard! Yvonne
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Deb Yetta, Prisca, Heidi, Alan, and Richard, I want to thank you all - and all of the TLN listserv-ers - for a great session this week. It was intense, informative, involved, and engaging. It is such a blessing that Richard has this listserv for us. Talk to you all soon, Deb
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Alan Thank you everyone for the stimulating conversation. And thank you Richard for providing this forum. We have such vast collective expertise and need to keep the conversation going! If you're a "miscuehead" and live in the NYC area or are planning to be in the Long Island vicinity, I am attaching an announcement for our Reading Miscue Research Roundtable and meeting of EMMA researchers (Eye Movement Miscue Analysis) well as a registration flier. All are invited--please join us. http://www.rcowen.com/OnlineDiscussions.htm (click on link just below photos of Yetta, Prisca, Alan, and Heidi.) At the Reading Miscue Research Roundtable, presenters share recent research and works in progress in an informal setting. Participants have an opportunity to look closely at data and participate in research conversations. This year will be especially exciting because Hofstra's Literacy Studies Department is sponsoring a meeting for EMMA (Eye Movement Miscue Analysis) researchers in conjunction with the Research Roundtable. The EMMA meeting (sponsored by a grant from CELT) is drawing a large group of researchers who will share their work at the research roundtable. Roundtable participants are invited to attend EMMA meetings, and workshops with the eye tracker in Hofstra's EMMA lab will also be available. All conference participants are welcome to bring data for discussion. Alan Alan D. Flurkey
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Lori I have been healthy as a horse all year and then—wham—I got so sick, it darned near seem like punishment from above for gloating about my health. What timing, to have missed this glorious conversation. Richard, my solace is knowing that you will post the transcripts.Regretful and still sniffly, Lori
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of
course it would make them more open!